Just Read A WASTE OF TIME CALLED CHURCH

[abbylovespits]

Cyber Angel- I will do my best to give you a birds eye view. The main character has always had this strong sense that there is a God, but feels distant while in church. He begins to shop different Christian based churches in hopes of finding a connection. As the sermons develops he typically finds something he disagrees with and politely leaves. His two friends discover this and mistaken it for some kind of church protest . They eagerly join him, which later develops into one my favorite scenes. For I have on many occasions wanted to walk out on a service. Eventually during the announcements of one these random churches the pastor asks for volunteers to help an elderly member move. He participates and decides, “instead of talking about what God wants me to do, I figured I would do it”. The idea goes viral and it begins to evolve into a movement. Its narrated by his friend and comes off more as a conversation which at times is really cool and others hard to follow. Like a story inside of a story.

Quotes - I gave my copy away so these are from memory so don’t fault me on the accuracy.

Why is right not right enough why is good not good enough
That’s the problem we are navigating with thousand year old maps no wonder we keep bumping into each other pissing one another off
Faith isn’t meant to lift you up so you can look down upon that which is different and then say because it is different it is wrong. Faith is the realization of how small we are compared to God and the Universe. We are all the same and all different to God.
Who more loves the father. The son that sits in his house showering him with praise, or the one that willingly tends to his flock outside.
Anyone who has wiped sweat from their brow helping another human being is a baptized as they will ever need to be.

This book literally fell into my lap and I can offer nothing about the author. But it did make me both laugh, cry, and think. Few books have had that effect on me.

[sparklekaz]

Hi Abby,

Thank you so much for giving us this taster of the book. It sounds like a really good story, with the message, walking the walk is better than talking the talk. Which I've always felt was the whole point of a belief system and what following a spiritual path is all about. Regardless of what path we choose.

I really don't believe there is a wrong or right way to worship or have a connection to or relationship with God. Only what is right for the individual. And I am thankful we live in enlightened times, that we have that choice. In bye-gone times it wasn't even enough to be a Christian. You had to be a christian, who followed the religion of the time. And then I'm sure we'd have been looked at very strangely if it was suggested they had a relationship with God it was very fear based. I'm sure how things are now, are for the most part, much closer to what God has always wanted for us. To be free to choose and worship in whatever way we want. Without persecution, prejudice and intolerance. I know, I know, there are still places in the world where this isn't happening. But I think we are slowly moving in that direction. Look how far we've come since those days!

Whether we are religious or spiritual they are both the same and to me only differ in the sense that one is more about conformity, rule and ritual; And the other is more freestyle, in the sense that 'we' get to decide for ourselves what is right for us in practical terms, and how best to emulate it's ethos. Can you remind me of the author's name again? I would be curious to try to find out more about them, or if he/she has written anything else.

Love and light
Kaz

[cyberangel]

Hi Abbey,

Thank you so much for taking the time to go into more detail on the story, as well as trying to remember the quotes You have also answered my next question which is how you came across it I am prompted to purchase it but I have so much on at the moment I would not be able to give it my full attention so I will leave it for now, but i have read the few pages available online, and I can really relate to what i have read so far. I have to say, that when I typed into googles the Title...This very thread comes up BEFORE the actual book, LOL. You never know maybe it will prompt the author to get in touch. Anyway Abby I have now added it to my must reads list and I look forward to discussing what I got out of the book. Sorry for delay as I was replying to other posts.

Thank you again

Love and Light

[baangus]

Apr 9, 2014 19:27:20 GMT sparklekaz said:

I really don't believe there is a wrong or right way to worship or have a connection to or relationship with God.

Hi Kaz. This to me is the one and only relevant perspective when all is said and done. Do you enjoy church worship? Fantastic! Is your preferred method of God-celebration to volunteer in a homeless shelter? Go for it!

Personally and for myself, spiritual communion is all about being the change one wants to see in the world. That means doing as opposed to reading about it in a book or singing hymns in church. (And did I mention those are my personal feelings as opposed to some kind of absolute dictum?)

[abbylovespits]

Cyberangel- I hope you enjoy it and would be curious to hear your thoughts. I spoke to the friend that introduced it to me and she not so politely informed that my synopsis was completely off the mark. It is not an indictment of the ritual of church according to her but an attempt to expose the manipulations of the pulpit and to show that “Faith is not bad, but to be weary of the any faith you put in Man” Also I failed to mention to her astonishment that the main character's excuse he uses to do all of this is Royal law- Love thy neighbor as thy self and love thy lord.

[baangus]

Apr 10, 2014 19:35:09 GMT abbylovespits said:

It is not an indictment of the ritual of church
[It is] an attempt to expose the manipulations of the pulpit
Faith is not bad, but to be weary of the any faith you put in [spiritual leaders]
This is Royal law- Love thy neighbor as thy self

100% seal of religious-message approval!

[abbylovespits]

My friend was actually looking for this Thread and found another in reference to this book. She forwarded it to me.


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Re: Concerned with Book found in daughters Back Pack

« Reply #51 on: April 12, 2014, 09:40:25 AM »


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I have finished this book. I can see its allure and both my friend and I view it as “Dangerous!”. It comes across with this innocent “have you ever thought about it like this “ attitude . Or a “don’t you find this kind of silly”. But if you pay attention here is what you will find. The author… author that’s comical actually. This person with a computer that posted this disguises their message in this everyday person that has this epiphany to quit going to church. Instead they will help people on Sundays. He and his friends posts their desire to lend a hand to strangers on craiglist and Voila! Everyone jumps on board and they mow elder people’s lawns, help people move, clean up parks, make swing set. Very warm and fuzzy and admirable.

The characters attack The Gospel dissecting it and even rewriting it to fit there own agenda. (They compare it to a flat world map)
They manipulate Royal law
They dismiss Hell as a joke
They walk out of churches during the invitation
They characterized Christians specifically as a group of simple minded prisoners held captive by the pulpit
They characterize religion as means of control.
They do drugs and it is no big deal
Those that defend true faith are mocked and made to look crazy, mean, and stupid.

Here are some quotes: “Don’t mistake your relationship with the church of even your religion for your relationship with God. God is bigger than that and so are you.”
The Bible: “It’s a way for religious zealots to one up one another. The higher they can raise the Bible the closer they can say they are to God.”
They say whoever wrote Revelation was “stoned”.

My daughter returns from her father’s tonight. I am trying to maintain some perspective and remain calm. I do appreciate everyone’s participation in this forum, but please understand this book represent in “My belief” a dangerous influence on my daughter. It will not be ignored. And while many have suggested I should let it go or allow a natural dialogue to happen that is not an option. Her reading this worries me sincerely for both its content and how it arrived in her back pack. My friend is is going to try and prompt a discussion on “Good Works” in youth group to see if that opens up a conversation. Her attitude is to focus on that and that alone, then expose only the points they raise. I am not sure I will be able wait until after church to address it.


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[baangus]

Apr 14, 2014 14:58:20 GMT abbylovespits said:

And while many have suggested I should let it go or allow a natural dialogue to happen that is not an option.

So Mom, who is offended by a book that talks about how religion is used to control and oppress, is using her religious convictions as the excuse to both control her daughter's reading habits and suppress her individual spiritual growth. Serves to emphasize how our actions are so much more life and relationship-altering than whatever tenets and belief paradigms we choose to latch onto in this life.

[abbylovespits]

I figured it was fair to offer another critique as scathing as this one is. But I would say it is somewhat accurate.

[baangus]

Apr 14, 2014 14:58:20 GMT abbylovespits said:

Those that defend true faith are mocked and made to look crazy, mean, and stupid.

Hi abby. Regardless of how accurate it is, the mother in fact comes across as all of the above to one degree or another. The book is dangerous? Really? Is that because it offers an alternative view of Christianity, one that's left of mainstream? Uh-huh, okay, and that's exactly the sort of intolerant crazy talk that fundamentalist religious nuts are known for. And to refuse to allow her daughter the freedom to read a simple book? Ridiculously stupid parental-fail to say the least. It's a disrespectful, mean-spirited reaction bordering on something akin to a cartoonish evil step-mother response. The degree of hypocrisy here is almost as astonishing as this woman's apparent ignorance of her own hypocritical behaviour.

I'm surprised though to hear you say this woman's description is somewhat accurate. I wasn't all that impressed with some of what I read. Walking out on a church service? What is that, a kind of protest or middle finger salute? Whatever that's about, it sure sounds rude.

[abbylovespits]

Apr 15, 2014 16:28:49 GMT baangus said:

I can give you my recount. The main Character in shopping for churches looking for a connection and invites his best friend. As the sermon starts “the Koz” the main character turns to his friend and says we are out of here. Then they walk out unnoticed. When his friend relays it to his girlfriend she devises a scheme to ensure that the Koz’s next exit is noticed. He is livid and chastises them for it, but as they sit and get stoned they reach a common ground. If they disagree with the message from the pulpit they will quietly exit out the side of the pew, if the message is wrong they will take the center isle and exit in protest. I don’t want to give it away but during an extremely difficult fire and brimstone sermon you can guess what happens.

Like I said in my post “somewhat” accurate. I am guessing the "Mocking Christians"  comes from a debate the Koz has on TV with an Evangelical Mega Church pastor or from a kind of smarmy preacher named Pastor Jay. I do believe these are caricatures that represent many that I have seen behind the pulpit.

This woman while I disagree with both her interpretation and her treatment of her daughter does have her right to her own opinion. Its obvious that she read it, but came away with something completely differently then I did.   Its sad that she missed what appears to be a golden opportunity to have a conversation with her daughter.

Baangus- Are you reading it?

[baangus]

Apr 15, 2014 14:19:09 GMT abbylovespits said:

I can give you my recount... If they disagree with the message from the pulpit they will quietly exit out the side of the pew, if the message is wrong they will take the center isle and exit in protest.

This woman while I disagree with both her interpretation and her treatment of her daughter does have her right to her own opinion.

Thanks for the clarification abby. So it's a harmless fictional novel as opposed to some "dangerous" anti-Christian manifesto in other words.

Sure we're all entitled to our opinions, and I'm always the first to support that notion. But when discussing anything, there are other factors that come into play, including level of discernment, intelligent versus unintelligent debate, and identifying dysfunctional and, in this particular case, cult behaviour. The "true faith" fundamentalist rhetoric this woman preaches is cult behaviour, period. Christianity, when taken to that level, is a cult. People like her are suffering from the same mind delusions that members of Scientology, the Unification Church, and the followers of Mata Amritanandamayi all suffer from.

I was a member of a spiritual cult for a time. If anything is truly "dangerous," it's that. If we're going to have an intelligent debate that's worthwhile on some real level, we need to be discerning when discussing these realities, and learn to recognize cult behaviour when it rears its small-minded and dogmatic little head.

[baangus]

This is quite comical. I came across this just now: How Do I Recognize A Cult? according to a Christian website.

Practically every cult has certain characteristics that can tell the careful observer that something is wrong. For instance, what does a group think about Jesus? Jesus Christ is God, Lord of all, the only source of salvation. Invariably, a cult will put something else on an equal footing with Christ.

This is akin to a group of foxes dressing up like chickens, and then telling the chickens not to let foxes into the chicken coop, only other chickens like them. 

[abbylovespits]

I view it as relatively harmless. The more I really talk about this book and recently my friend has been participating again (Yeah) it raises some interesting questions. It does have its issues one being poorly edited and there are several mistakes forcing you to give the author a lot of leeway. My friend and I grew up in a similar environment as depicted in this book and I think that has a lot to do with why it resonated with us.

I completely agree about Christian hypocrisy. One section that my friend and I both enjoyed was a section where the narrator’s church is auditioning perspective pastors. One of the preachers is a reformed drug addict and very candid with the congregation. They are of course gracious to his face but once he leaves the church grounds the elders torch him as a candidate. (Not very Christian). This again is something we have both experienced growing up. Our church had a two families leave to go to another church and for several weeks after you could hear the most mean spirited comments made about these families from a small group of church goers.

[baangus]

Apr 16, 2014 15:16:09 GMT abbylovespits said:

I completely agree about Christian hypocrisy.

Our church had a two families leave to go to another church and for several weeks after you could hear the most mean spirited comments made about these families from a small group of church goers.

Hypocrisy exists in every religion, every spiritual movement, and in many everyday situations and interactions. I'm not singling out or picking on Christians. I just call it like I see it, when I see it.

People make mean-spirited comments because they're fearful, and because they're insecure with themselves, their beliefs and their lives. Why else would this individual feel threatened to the point of labeling this book as dangerous? She believes this book is utter nonsense. So then how can it be dangerous to read? If it's pure nonsense, it would be like reading a comedy. She'd get a good laugh out of it.

But the fact is she's subconsciously aware of certain truths in the book. These are no doubt truths she's caught glimpses of throughout her relationship with the church. But she's never had the courage to address those questions and discrepancies. And now she's worried that her daughter will exhibit the kind of courage and individualism the mother never did. Fear, regret and even jealousy all come into play. The younger generation are the ones who can sniff out the untruth and the bs, every adult knows that. A happy, secure mother would let the teenager discover whatever it is she needs to discover, and make her own determinations.

A fearful, dysfunctional parent would do whatever was necessary to prevent the teen from researching anything that might shine a light upon and call into question the parent's beliefs and life choices. The book is "dangerous," not because of what it says about the church, but because of what it may expose with regards to the mother.

[abbylovespits]

I was tempted to respond but just couldn't.

[baangus]

Thanks for the link (since removed) to that forum, abby. A couple of comments on that thread I found interesting:

"I find the title "A Waste of Time Called Church A Stoner's Guide to Salvation" Both offensive and all out affront to our core belief." (Hmm, that sounds familiar!)

And from someone responding to the woman who is having the issue with the book:

"I'm enjoying it immensely! But if your daughter thinks you won't get it, I'd say there should be a red flag going up.... FOR YOU. I think my daughter would say, 'I'm sure glad you're not like the parents in this book!'"

[markings]

Her daughter is at an age where church probably is seen as a waste of time. There is little the mother can do to change this other than telling the daughter what she gets out of it. But maybe that is the real problem, there is nothing either.

This doesn't mean that it will always be so. Sometimes one just has to hang in there, sometimes one has to leave and return later.

From a reply
"She said it is a pretty aggressive indictment on the ritual of worship and the bible itself and a blatant attack on the pulpit, by leveraging Good Works over Worship."

The debate about what is more important, good works or worship, is a long-standing one. As far a rituals go I think that Christians don't have a clue, and do not want to get one either, about their purpose. The purpose of ritual is to experience a loss of self, something which is too horrible for them to even contemplate.

[abbylovespits]

We have discussed this title in depth in this forum and it really just comes down to if you like church you won’t care for this book if you don’t like church you might find it some what compelling. The fact this girl picked it up should tell the mother that her daughter is at least curious.

[baangus]

Apr 21, 2014 19:01:21 GMT abbylovespits said:

it really just comes down to if you like church you won’t care for this book

It's not that simple abby. As I pointed out in my last post, one of the churchgoers on that forum you linked to, stated s/he was enjoying the book immensely. It's like anything in life: if you have an unhealthy bias or disdain towards a thing, your attitude and approach will reflect that. If you have a healthy, balanced perspective and joyful life attitude, you're able to happily listen to what anyone has to say. You don't have to agree, but you can listen and interact with them respectfully. And even learn something in the process.