Just Read A WASTE OF TIME CALLED CHURCH

[abbylovespits]

Just finished the book. It does raise an interesting questions over the idea of a Deity caring nothing about worship but only about how we treat one another. Has any read this?

[sparklekaz]

Hi Abbey,

I haven't read the book, but you've piqued my interest.

I would concur with the opinion though. Personally, I believe that anyone who treats their fellow human beings with respect and compassion, emulates the most important of spiritual qualities. Whether they worship in a formal or traditional way, to me is immaterial. The overriding message that comes through the scriptures and other holy books is one of love, being of service, and showing kindness to each other.

I know many people genuinely feel that their worship is an essential and important part of the religious/spiritual practice. But there are also quite a few who go to church and only pay 'lip service' to their beliefs. As a kind of 'insurance policy' for when they meet their maker. Then proceed to spend the rest of their time not really behaving in a very charitable and kind way. I would like to believe that whichever deity we pray to, is more concerned with how we live our lives and treat other people. As the saying goes 'walking the walk, not just talking the talk'. Rather then being worried about whether or not we'd visited the church, mosque or synagogue each week to worship them. But that is just my opinion.

Thanks for sharing this. I'd be very interested to hear your thoughts on the subject.

Love and light
Kaz

[baangus]

Hi abby. My first response would be that, to me, the title of that book comes across as very confrontational. Church isn't my cup of tea but it is for many millions of people. Discussing and examining our differing religious and spiritual views in ways that end up making others feel bad, isn't accomplishing anything of substance in my opinion. My second thought is why would one even wonder about a deity caring how we treat one another? Seems as abstract an idea as a deity caring/not caring about worship. How about we take the practical approach instead and simply treat one another as best we can, and leave it at that?

[cyberangel]

A Waste of Time Called Church: A Stoner's Guide to Salvation (Fiction)
by E Sabiol 

“Maybe you are the one that can make sense of this. I know I can't. All I can really do is tell the truth about who he was and maybe offer some insight into why he did it. Tell you about an awkward boy with endless questions that evolved in to a narcotic pothead with one simple idea. "I will help people on Sunday instead of going to church." He didn't shout it from a soap box. He didn't claim a path nor advise of one. He just did it, but in doing it people saw, and in seeing they grew curious. Their curiosity gave way to participation, and the idea gave way to a movement. A movement that when expanded, created an image of empty pews across the country, and those 60 million Americans that filled them every Sunday, setting out into their communities with one common goal; to help anyone that needed a hand. A movement that traded Sunday bests for sweat trenched t-shirts and dust covered jeans. A movement that felt compelled to have a leader, no matter how much he pleaded with them they didn't.”

Hi Abby,

I have looked up the book and see it is available on several book sites and was independently published only this month of this year so is very recent, but there is no info on the Author E Sabiol anywhere online, including on the publishing site itself. I would really like to read more about this author and was just wondering if you had any info on him/her? The book sounds interesting by the short abstract here and one can read a further 2 -3 more pages online, which I have to say it has me ‘nibbling at the hook’ even though I don’t really read fictional books no longer.

I think it’s worth keeping in mind folks to never judge a book by its cover nor by its title but by the work inside, a bit like people

Love and light  

[baangus]

Mar 24, 2014 23:13:31 GMT cyberangel said:

I think it’s worth keeping in mind folks to never judge a book by its cover nor by its title but by the work inside, a bit like people

Hi cyberangel. Going by that snippet you posted, it sounds like I hit the nail on the head. The author advocates practical spirituality - something I agree with obviously - while offering a rather pessimistic take on Sunday church worship. As for your inquiry regarding the author: it could be the author started this thread, or someone working on their behalf. That happens a lot on the internet and on spiritual forums like this one. The thread title in fact is a kind of direct message to go out and pick up the book: Just Read A WASTE OF TIME CALLED CHURCH.

[cyberangel]

Hi baangus,

Liking your new profile pic btw

Because this post had got responses before I commented, I thought I would take the time to look it up for myself to see what it was about before posting a comment based on the title and the question abby asked. I agree with you in relation to the author possibly posting this to get attention and indeed it possibly could be the author/authoress (I think it was obvious from my post that I too was of a similar view).

I being a ‘casual’ mass attendee did not find the title offensive, in fact I found it intriguing hence my curiosity and response. I can also see how one could view it and guess it’s all about perspective. As I saw it, ‘Abby’ had read this book and was asking if others had also, as a way of opening up to a specific dialogue with her question. That is why I wanted to see what it was all about before I jumped straight into her question.

Without meaning to cause you offense and with great respect baangus, I just found you a bit dismissive based on whether a title of a book would cause offence or not. People can and will be offended by many things in life, and all I was saying is to give someone/something a chance before making assumptions on what others may or may not think. Now if you were personally offended (which you say you weren’t) then that would be different.

In relation to if she/he is the author I wish them the best of luck with it, as I said it sounds quite interesting, whether or not I’m about to rush out and purchase it is a whole different thing. If it was her/his intention to grab our attention, well done, it did. And whether or not this is the place to push/advertise the book, well that is up to the admin of the forum.

Love and Light 

[abbylovespits]

This makes sense now. I knew it was available on Amazon but never dawned on me it was self published, and why it appears to need some editing. Still the over all message resonated with me quite strongly. "Don't confuse your relationship with your church or even your religion as you relationship with God. God is Bigger than that and so are you."

[sparklekaz]

I think anything that generates debate and interest is a good thing. But having said that, I am still awaiting Abbey's thoughts on this book. I am assuming having read the book or even wrote it she must have some. If she does not come back and enter into the discussion, then it would seem her only purpose to putting it on here, was 'to flog' as many as she could. If that is the case, it is spam rather then having a genuine interest in this forum and other people's opinions and sharing interactively. We shall see!

Love and light
Kaz

[abbylovespits]

I did enjoy the book, much like Ishmael. And had bored friends with a constant Theological Spiritual Debates much like Ishmael. I leap to the idea of forums naively thinking more had read it, But realize I was just looking for more rich conversation and some participation.

[cyberangel]

"Don't confuse your relationship with your church or even your religion as you relationship with God. God is Bigger than that and so are you."

Hi Abby,

Would it be possible to elaborate more on this? I am interested to see how YOU see yourself in relation to God, or do you see yourself on par with God? Also do you think it is possible for religious persons to separate church/religious teachings from the concept of God?

I look forward to hearing your reply,


Love and Light

[abbylovespits]

That was a quote from you know. As far as my thoughts they float around. I believe in something, a connection, a purpose, and a reason for conscious life. The idea of a deity that knows all I go back and fourth, but then I kind of snap into a realization that if there were a God I as a human have no way of fathoming of what they are. As far of religious teachings I think they have to be examined honestly because regardless of your belief eventually we relied on humans to tell us what happened and that alone makes me skeptical.

[sparklekaz]

Hi Abby,

It's good to see you joining in the discussion. I see, I posted my earlier reply just as you had done yours. I then when straight out the house. If I'd seen yours I'd have probably deleted mine.

I look forward to seeing more of your posts and getting to know you better.

Love and light
Kaz

[markings]

This could serve as a concept for a new series of books

A waste os time called Meditation
A waste of time called Yoga
A waste of time called Qi Gong
A waste of time called Reiki
A waste of time called Homeopathy
A waste of time called Retreats
A waste of time called Philosophy

and there may be many more.

[baangus]

Mar 25, 2014 13:16:52 GMT cyberangel said:

Without meaning to cause you offense and with great respect baangus, I just found you a bit dismissive based on whether a title of a book would cause offence or not.

Now if you were personally offended (which you say you weren’t) then that would be different.

Hi cyberangel. I've said elsewhere that I appreciate a good conversation, and that I don't expect people to agree with me. I wasn't offended by the book title or your post. I actually feel the same way in that church would be a waste of time... for me. My point is that it isn't a waste of time for many people, and choosing a title like that for one's book instantly sets up a confrontational us-versus-them conversation dynamic. Judgmental, one-sided views and opinions are the antithesis of friendly, sympathetic conversation, and seldom if ever move a dialogue forward in a meaningful way.

[baangus]

Mar 26, 2014 4:47:37 GMT markings said:

A waste of time called Qi Gong

Hi markings. Qi Gong is a great way to energize the body and mind, especially first thing in the morning. It is meditation that doesn't put you to sleep and in fact wakes you up, which is exactly what I need.

[baangus]

Mar 25, 2014 16:09:39 GMT abbylovespits said:

The idea of a deity that knows all I go back and fourth, but then I kind of snap into a realization that if there were a God I as a human have no way of fathoming of what they are. As far of religious teachings I think they have to be examined honestly because regardless of your belief eventually we relied on humans to tell us what happened and that alone makes me skeptical.

Hi abby. Your observation that we have no way of fathoming what God is, is a very good one. The All and the realities that govern Creation are way beyond the scope of our tiny intellects to ever comprehend. Given the immensity of all that, we imagined a deity because it made us feel less insignificant in some way. That in my opinion is how and why the whole deity concept came about in the first place.

Your comment about religious teachings is also spot on. They need to be examined in new ways. Read the Bible with an occult (hidden meaning) perspective and understanding and it becomes a wonderfully-inspired spiritual instruction manual.

[abbylovespits]

Baangus I completely agree. The concept of the Bible or any religious text for that matter I have a hard time with. First if we are to be blessed with freewill then a "Christian God" has no way of knowing what we will do, therefore he knows us better now just from the constant observation. Second you can see in the text themselves the overall idea of control. As far as the title a “A Waste of Time Called Church” being confrontational I think that is one reason I and my friend gravitated to it. We both go to church sporadically to appease relatives and grew up with it as an obligation. I respect faith but have always felt a disconnect. I think the author just let me know at least I wasn’t alone.

[baangus]

Mar 26, 2014 12:55:23 GMT abbylovespits said:

The concept of the Bible or any religious text for that matter I have a hard time with.

Hi abby. It can be difficult because of past conditioning, yes. But I believe there is wisdom in everything, including religious texts. It's how one reads that text and what one does with the information that matters. Generally speaking and without trying to insult anyone, the religious approach grabs hold of the information and specifically labels it as this or that. That's how dogma and doctrine is created, and it's what Theosophy does BTW if you haven't seen that for yourself already.

A spiritual approach to understanding allows that same information to remain open to interpretation, which then allows for continuous exploration and rediscovery. It's as simple as that. The thing is, many people don't feel comfortable with this approach because it means you never really know the answers. With the spiritual approach, the answers change as your life perspective deepens and evolves. But many people need to believe they know what's what as it provides them with a sense of security and stability. And especially in the crazy world we live in today, which explains the increase in radical, fundamentalist, extremist religious views.

[abbylovespits]

That is one of my favorite discussions. The role of religion vs the message. The Rigid nature of organized religion doesn’t allow for picking and choosing. If you do, it doesn’t take long before you to start to feel as if you are doing something wrong. It is kind of like the chicken and the egg. Was religion developed to obscure a universal truth or was it an attempt to disseminate it.

[sparklekaz]

Hi Abbey and Baangus.. I agree with where you are both coming from. I particularly liked what Baangus said "Read the Bible with an occult (hidden meaning) perspective and understanding and it becomes a wonderfully-inspired spiritual instruction manual". I tend to pick the bible up occasionally and pick a page out randomly. Having consciously asked in my mind for something insightful and helpful to read. It's strange how often it flips open on a page where I do find something meaningful. Reflective of where I'm at, and how I'm feeling.

I think we have to accept that the bible and religion has always been used as a powerful tool to manipulate the masses and to control them. That it has been distorted and changed to suit the political agenda of the time. What worries me is how there are many who will take everything literally. Not appreciating that it was written in the symbology of the time. With no room for discussion or to be questioned. That it is also very contradictory and which interpretation someone focus's on, very much depends on their personality, nature and prejudices. Hence why it is has been the cause of so much conflict. I never read anywhere in the bible where it said 'You shall not kill...... unless someone doesn't believe as you do, then feel free'.

I was brought up as a roman catholic. I attended mass very much like Abbey, out of respect for and to please my Grandparents. Particularly when I entered my teens. When I was very young, I actually enjoyed it. I didn't understand the prayers or the ritual. But I did love the way it made me feel. The warmth of community. Belonging to something greater then myself, and a feeling of warmth, love and being protected. So for me when I was just responding to the energy I was fine. When I was old enough to question, to think for myself. The dogma got in the way of my just 'being' in a spiritual state.

Love and light
Kaz

[markings]

Mar 26, 2014 19:13:59 GMT sparklekaz said:

The dogma got in the way of my just 'being' in a spiritual state.

Interesting comment. Why do you think that is? Or, asked in another way, why would dogma have that effect?

[cyberangel]

I can see and agree with Karen's statement "The dogma got in the way of my just 'being' in a spiritual state"

I feel markings, that one needs to reach a certain age and maturity to attain a level of confidence and strength to be cynical or critical of something that does not resonate with you. As young children we are conditioned by our surroundings, parents and society.

We are kind of like brainwashed into thinking certain things because we lack the experience of discovering and seeking out for ourselves. It is only with age comes wisdom as the saying goes.

To belong within a religious faith one must accept their teachings as their own including the doctrines and ethics according to that faith. It takes a long, long time to re-condition oneself of others teachings and beliefs and to learn to stand up or even to stand alone, in relation to your own inner truth.

[abbylovespits]

Cyberangel I both agree and disagree. My parents are far less grounded spiritually than my sister or I, but they were far more religious in the sense of participation in church. The Dogma was never reinforced at home. And at times kind of a cute joke between the two of them when referencing an overly zealous church member. But that was only done in house. we could have occasional discussions, but if those discussions ventured even as close as say a cousin, my mother would make eyes letting us know we were approaching some imaginary line. Out of the house it was never said directly but the idea was to always be polite, gracious, and compliant. I have never really asked what their connection to the church is since they are so obviously not religious, out of fear of upsetting them. But to me they go for my grandmothers. I really don’t know, I do know they don’t want to be boat rockers and true expression and honest questions are considered rude, but behind close doors those that sit in pews nodding along with the sermon are far closer to us than we may realize.

[Ishtahota]

People who take part in the worlds great religions grow in hurds, as a large group. You can get some to break from that hurd metality, but most who do break out will go back to it at some point. Very few can leave the comfort of the hurd and walk their own path. The church does have its place and its people grow in what takes many liftimes. I saw my parents work with friends and family members for many years and after my parents died these people went back to the comfort of their respective hurds.

The church became an excuse for people to not do the work of becoming. And in a lot of way the new age movment did the same thing. But the people are growing. Keep in mind that it took a few hundred years for the USA to have a black president. We may not see a lot of the change in our lifetime, but the seeds have been planted and they are growing.

In alcoholics anomious we a phrase called group consciousness. I may enter a group that does not see things the same way that I do, and at first as I present my views and insights I will get all sorts of flack and resistance, but over the years the peoples views and ideas will expand to include what I have brought to the group. Your presence in the world effects the group consciousness.

[sparklekaz]

Hi Markings,

I think Angel put it into words very eloquently for me. "We are kind of like brainwashed into thinking certain things because we lack the experience of discovering and seeking out for ourselves. It is only with age comes wisdom as the saying goes. To belong within a religious faith one must accept their teachings as their own including the doctrines and ethics according to that faith. It takes a long, long time to re-condition oneself of others teachings and beliefs and to learn to stand up or even to stand alone, in relation to your own inner truth".

That was it in a nutshell for me. When I became old enough to understand the teachings of the Catholic church. There were many things that just did not feel right to me. They made me feel uncomfortable. I felt guilty for quite a while to even question what I had been taught as a child. Such thoughts were considered to be ungodly. There is a real emphasis within the catholic faith on 'hell, fire and damnation'. Can be pretty terrifying as a child to believe that you were bad or would go to hell for doubting the word of God. I thought our priests were repeating God's teachings verbatim. I didn't realise that God spoke to anyone else. Or that there were other ways of worshiping God. To be quite honest, it was not until I was about 7 or 8 that I realised there was such a thing as different religions.

As a child I believed in God completely. It was him I turned to when I felt afraid or worried about anything. (I refer to God in the masculine because of the way in which I personally think of God. A protective father figure. I'm not stating that God is male) In my prayers I felt he listened and comforted me. Innately, it felt wrong to be told, that other people were considered to be sinners or wouldn't get into heaven, just because they worshiped differently or thought of God in a different way to me. That really upset me, and did for quite a while really shake my belief. Looking back, I guess I felt disappointed in God. That this image of him being loving and protective to all of us as I was taught was false. How could he pick and choose who to love and who not to love.

I felt inside me a real void as if I'd lost something very precious. When I got to my late teens early twenties. I realised it was ok to connect to God in any way that felt right for me. I'd read about different religions. Particularly Buddhism and I loved what they had to say. Now here was a belief system that 'felt' right. If this one did, whose to say that there were not others that would feel right too. So I read more and explored. Some things really felt odd but just as many other things felt good. I thought, how can I relate to the teachings of so many different faiths. Then I realised that at their core, they all had the same fundimental things in common.

Compassion, love, truth, being of service to others and responsibility for our own actions. Then came those Aah Haa moments. It didn't matter how people worshiped or believed or what they called their God or Gods. It was all the same. They just called it by a different name. Even those who did not believe in a God, centred their belief around the core common elements that I held close to my heart. I realised that religious difference could be used as an excuse for conflict, and that it had always been like this. That felt more ungodly to me then using different prayers and following different rituals. I could see clearly how easy it was for people to become so disillusioned by religion. And thought how sad it was that this caused many to abandon a spiritual life altogether. That is why now it warms my heart and inspires me to see people now, seeking other ways to express that need.

I now follow no religion; but gladly take into my heart, spiritual and inspirational words wherever I find them. I don't care what source they come from. All that I know is, that I connect with them and the people who believe them also, on a heart and soul level. I remember a few years ago visiting Turkey on holiday. I was listening to the 'call to prayer' from the mosque nearby. When I heard it, it literally stopped me in my tracks. I could not understand the language. But the tone and the yearning in the prayer gave me shivers. It resonated with me and I 'felt' the prayer and felt transfixed by it. I didn't think I'd ever heard anything so beautiful. I know it jars with some, but for me it resonated and I felt a kinship in those moments that crossed all religious and cultural barriers. I've never really lost my belief in God, just found a better way for me personally to express it. And I will support others their right to believe their own truth as they want to, without condemnation or intolerance, to my last breath. I truly believe that is the spirituality God wants for us. We are all just making our way home. That people choose different routes to get there, is to me is irrelevant and a celebration of our uniqueness.

Love and light
Kaz

[cyberangel]

I have to say Kaz that the love and passion that pours through your words and the space between them is absolutely inspirational. To me, you beautifully communicate everything that being spiritual should be. Thank you, you beautiful soul.

Love and Light

[baangus]

Mar 27, 2014 14:34:31 GMT Ishtahota said:

The church became an excuse for people to not do the work of becoming. And in a lot of way the new age movment did the same thing.

Very true. New age spiritual doctrine is still doctrine. The difference though as I see is that new age individuals for the most part are still open to expanding their understanding via an ongoing transformation of their core beliefs. And that just doesn't happen with religion.

[cyberangel]

I think it would be wonderful to find everyone working towards embracing and welcoming all the diversities within the spirit ethos, while still remaining to be true to oneself. I really, really loved the way Kaz expressed it:

“I now follow no religion; but gladly take into my heart, spiritual and inspirational words wherever I find them. I don't care what source they come from. All that I know is, that I connect with them and the people who believe them also, on a heart and soul level... And I will support others their right to believe their own truth as they want to, without condemnation or intolerance, to my last breath. I truly believe that is the spirituality God wants for us. We are all just making our way home. That people choose different routes to get there, is to me is irrelevant and a celebration of our uniqueness.”

These words didn't just echo deep within my being, but I actually felt their energy and it brought me to tears, they filled my heart so much. Never have I read something so incredibly humbling that touched my soul like these words have.  

There is only one word that I can think of that I can express to you Kaz...and that word is

Namaste

xxx

[abbylovespits]

While I loathe organized religion for its rigid nature and the very thing I find myself defending. I am wary of the perception that those in the church are unable to avoid indoctrination. I know people who are capable of taking the words from the pulpit with a grain of salt. They abstain from doing so in front of any church members but their spiritual side is as rich as anyone I know. They close their ears to that which they find offensive and ingest that which is enriching. I realize their silence is part of the problem, but their attendance makes them no more susceptible to indoctrination then I am. The truth is they are focused on the good while I sit there focusing only on the bad. Actually fuming mad at times.

[baangus]

Mar 28, 2014 15:51:05 GMT abbylovespits said:

I am wary of the perception that those in the church are unable to avoid indoctrination.

They close their ears to that which they find offensive and ingest that which is enriching. I sit there focusing only on the bad. Actually fuming mad at times.

Hi abby. Anyone who chooses to embrace a specific set of religious, spiritual or philosophical beliefs is, to one degree or another, indoctrinated. It's unavoidable. I had this discussion with ex-colleagues for years. The spiritual group I was part of followed an esoteric Christian set of beliefs. After becoming disillusioned with things but before leaving the group, I would point out that esoteric Christian beliefs are still religious in nature and a form of indoctrination. You can't argue for example that mainstream religion is wrong, and that your so-called esoteric and spiritual truths regarding Jesus and Christ are correct. All you're doing is substituting one set of religious tenets and beliefs for another.

It's why I often point out the difference between embracing doctrine (the external path) versus experiencing wisdom (the inner path). Once one makes that distinction, and understands the difference between those two approaches, it's much easier to accept where other people are with their spiritual seeking. It's also easier to understand where they're coming from with regards to the spiritual views they verbalize and share. I gravitate towards the latter type of spiritual seeker now, and have very little to do anymore with the former. And I leave it at that. I'm only responsible for myself; I can't change people and how they behave and see things.