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Post by abbylovespits on Mar 31, 2014 13:51:49 GMT
Anyone who chooses to embrace a specific set of religious, spiritual or philosophical beliefs is, to one degree or another, indoctrinated. It's unavoidable. While I do believe that a spiritual path is defined by an individual but I also believe in universal truths. Can one not find these universal truths in doctrine or in spite of it? While we are on different paths the destination remains the same. |
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sparklekaz
Someone asked me.. What is your religion? I said, "All the paths that lead to the light".
Posts: 3,658
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Post by sparklekaz on Mar 31, 2014 14:31:18 GMT
Anyone who chooses to embrace a specific set of religious, spiritual or philosophical beliefs is, to one degree or another, indoctrinated. It's unavoidable. While I do believe that a spiritual path is defined by an individual but I also believe in universal truths. Can one not find these universal truths in doctrine or in spite of it? While we are on different paths the destination remains the same. Hi Abbey, I do believe we can find these universal truths within doctrine, and in spite of it. That is why I am open to all beliefs, rather than following one. Because for me, I find them nestling within them all. Words that fill me with a warmth. Don't you ever get those moments, when you read something that gives you tingles. Or hear something that really resonates on a heart and soul level? I love the analogy, "be like a bee, going from flower to flower and drinking of it's honey. Those little pearls of wisdom to me, are 'spiritual honey, ambrosia for the soul'.  My experience of following one religion, is that of conflict, and guilt. Feeling guilty for not believing or disagreeing. Even if it is only expressed inwardly. My life has been filled with little signposts and synchronistic events, that have led me along my own very individual spiritual path. All highlighting which for me are universal truths, pointing the way and more often than not, continually bringing me back.. to myself. That is why though I am still trying to connect with my own inner wisdom, my innate sense of what is true. I completely believe it is there. Just waiting to be discovered. Every so often, I get a real sense of that connection, and it is what continues to propel me forward. I know you will find your own way too, indeed in many ways I can see you are already Love and light Kaz |
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Post by baangus on Mar 31, 2014 15:46:51 GMT
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Post by abbylovespits on Mar 31, 2014 17:13:57 GMT
I've been responding to what I thought was your frustration regarding Christian dogma and religious attitudes. You are absolutely correct in my frustration with Christian Dogma. I guess I get caught up in this overall view of Dogma vs the individuals that participate. I see the faceless masses imprisoned by ideology and ignorance, but then feel compelled to defend those individuals closest to me. I so want there to be a consensus. I true answer for all to understand that the core goal is simple.
"Peace, Peace in our existence and Peace in our lives." A Waste of Time Called Church E. Sabiol
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Post by baangus on Mar 31, 2014 17:21:46 GMT
I guess I get caught up in this overall view of Dogma vs the individuals that participate. Well for me, dogma is dogma and there's not a lot of room for interpretation. Now, to what degree individuals embrace a particular ideology is entirely dependent on the individual. These are really two different discussions as I see it. |
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Post by abbylovespits on Mar 31, 2014 17:43:57 GMT
Baangus- Can you please elaborate to the differences. This is what confuses me and frustrates me the most.
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Post by baangus on Mar 31, 2014 17:55:59 GMT
Baangus- Can you please elaborate to the differences. This is what confuses me and frustrates me the most. Okay I'll try. The first thought I would share is that I've met kind, loving Christian churchgoers, and I've met arrogant, haughty New Age spiritualists. That tells me there's a difference between what one believes, and the manner in which one expresses those beliefs. In other words, one cannot generalize and say Christians believe this and do that. You can only examine the particular tenets of a particular religion. If you want to examine how followers of that religion relate to the tenets of that religion, you have to do so on an individual basis. |
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Post by abbylovespits on Mar 31, 2014 19:08:04 GMT
That tells me there's a difference between what one believes, and the manner in which one expresses those beliefs. Excellent !!! This really helped me get at least some perspective on where my confusion lies. It’s the fact I have encountered people on both sides who argue not to exchange ideas and participate in an open dialogue but to only prove their way is right and the other is wrong . I have found myself on occasion alone on an island disappointed and helpless. |
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Post by markings on Apr 1, 2014 4:00:52 GMT
For the Western world and European cultures, with the freedom and spread of information we have have today there is no reason for anyone to be tied to a particular belief or dogma.
Therefore there is no reason to complain about dogma either.
If one is not happy with it leave it behind. If one can't then one has to look within as to why that is.
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Post by abbylovespits on Apr 1, 2014 20:39:05 GMT
If one can't then one has to look within as to why that is. I think that is part of the struggle for me. Those who adopt a faith or path that isn't because it draws one in spiritually but because it represents the opposition to something they disagree with, and their refusal to look within. |
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Post by abbylovespits on Apr 3, 2014 13:38:39 GMT
It goes back to the reason I came to this forum. I was extremely moved by “A Waste of Time Called Church” for I believe it held a universal truth. Much like a friend who discovers a song that touches them, and forces you to listen to it. I steered my friends into spiritual debates, unprepared for them to see things completely differently than I, or not caring at all. That is where I struggle. My Inner peace vs being a steward of humanity.
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Post by baangus on Apr 3, 2014 15:04:59 GMT
That is where I struggle. My Inner peace vs being a steward of humanity. Hi abby. But why the need to examine and critique other people, and how they think and behave? By focusing instead on yourself, and living your life in a conscious manner, you serve as an example for all to see. That way you maintain your inner peace while being a steward of humanity as you put it. |
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Post by abbylovespits on Apr 3, 2014 19:02:34 GMT
Thanks everyone - I came to this forum for exactly this “perspective”. And I think my struggle lies in this exhilaration I feel for finding a way and being able to balance it with my desire to share it.
I guess I get confused with the difference between say “A calling” and my newfound excitement. I don’t want to be a spiritual snob but feel like I am being selfish if fail to reveal it.
I would love to hear anyone’s ideas on how to balance the two
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sparklekaz
Someone asked me.. What is your religion? I said, "All the paths that lead to the light".
Posts: 3,658
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Post by sparklekaz on Apr 3, 2014 20:49:47 GMT
I think firstly it's important to remember, that in our enthusiasm to share our new found perspective. That we don't fall into the trap of preaching to, or trying to convert others to our way of thinking. Because if we did that, we'd be no different to the religious doctrine we ourselves rejected or tried to avoid. Another danger I feel, is that of without realising it we can easily become fixed in this new perspective. Because I believe it is by nature a fluid thing, expands and grows. So as we grow, learn and connect more with our own inner guidance and wisdom, it will change. And yes, there is also the risk of becoming a spiritual snob. That we feel superior to others, because we are so convinced we have found 'the truth' and others are lost, confused and misguided, if their attitude or beliefs don't correspond with ours. I still believe wholeheartedly, that no matter what religion or spiritual belief that people connect to. Within it is the seed of their own spiritual truth and who are we to challenge others and expect them to defend those beliefs. I've been on the receiving end of that and it's not not nice and certainly not spiritual. I'm not saying you would do any of these things Abbey, just sharing some of the things I've gone through and experienced on my own spiritual journey. I really love to share my thoughts and beliefs with others, and am so grateful that there are places like this forum to do that. But I am also aware, that we must each follow our own path and develop our own beliefs at the right pace and timing that is right for us. Without expecting others to mirror that progress. While we can help each other, and even be a sign post for one another, and hopefully provide some of those Aaah Haa moments for them. We cannot force their progress. We cannot make others believe as we do, and should feel no responsibility for them. So don't feel sad that others don't see things as you do Abby, just be someone whom they can look at and think, there is a really nice, loving spiritual person. Be a light, someone who others would like to emulate. If you want to inspire others, be a good example. Love and light Kaz |
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donq
[img src="[storage.proboards.com/1400695/images/U0vmMtloGmL0onhnuezY.png"]
Posts: 1,283 
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Post by donq on Apr 4, 2014 3:57:33 GMT
Hi abby,
Let me quote Confucius here (sorry if it’s irrelevant to your thread.)
“Is it not a pleasure, having learned something,
to practice it at appropriate times?
Is it not a joy to have friends come from afar?
Is it not the conduct of an exemplary person,
to refrain from taking offence
when other fails to appreciate your abilities?”
I believe if we are so lucky, we may find our like minded friends. If not, it’s still our joys to learn and practice what we’ve known, isn’t it?
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sparklekaz
Someone asked me.. What is your religion? I said, "All the paths that lead to the light".
Posts: 3,658
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Post by sparklekaz on Apr 4, 2014 11:07:29 GMT
Hi Baangus,
Can you tell me why your deleting your words on some of your replies and putting N/M. People have liked them and replied on the back of them, so it has left the thread looking odd. To save confusion, I've deleted the ones you marked in that way. Not because there was anything wrong with what you wrote. This is for the benefit of Abbey, Donq and Angel who might be wondering why they have gone. If your concerned about anything please share so we can talk about it.
Love and light
Kaz
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Post by baangus on Apr 4, 2014 13:26:02 GMT
Hi Baangus, Can you tell me why your deleting your words on some of your replies and putting N/M. People have liked them and replied on the back of them, so it has left the thread looking odd. To save confusion, I've deleted the ones you marked in that way. Not because there was anything wrong with what you wrote. This is for the benefit of Abbey, Donq and Angel who might be wondering why they have gone. If your concerned about anything please share so we can talk about it. Love and light Kaz Hi Kaz. Going back to my first post, I maintain the title of this book is ludicrous and should be changed to A Waste Of Time Called Deciding What Is And Isn't A Waste Of Time For Other People. Church is not a waste of time for tens of millions of individuals. I've met many kind and loving churchgoers. For them it's not about intellectualizing and talk. It's about attitude and behavior, and the way they treat others and carry themselves in the world. That's real, living spirituality. The idea that I would have something more spiritual to offer someone like that, is condescending and insulting to them, and an indication I'm not in fact as far along the road to wisdom as I thought I was. That's the bottom line for me, and I said everything I needed to say in my first couple of posts. I should have just left it at that, and so I deleted the extraneous stuff. |
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Post by abbylovespits on Apr 4, 2014 18:00:51 GMT
Baangus – While I found the title provocative I obviously can see how it could be seen as offensive and an affront to those that find comfort in the ritual of church. I can’t speak for the author’s true motivation, but I really got a sense that its focus was not an indictment anyone’s faith, but to pose the question. “What if Good Works were more important then the ritual?” At least that’s what I took from it.
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Post by baangus on Apr 7, 2014 11:47:53 GMT
Baangus – While I found the title provocative I obviously can see how it could be seen as offensive and an affront to those that find comfort in the ritual of church. Hi abby. Again, it's not a matter of being offensive. I don't last long on internet discussion sites because I tire of the cynical snideness in a lot of new age individuals (not you). It's just so typical now to read posts and threads from people who spend their time invalidating other spiritual paths and tearing them down, and pointing out what's wrong and false and idiotic about them. That's the social-media conversational norm these days, and there's a lowest-common-denominator ugliness to it all. I spent years working in theatre and music. I long ago came to the understanding that the only worthwhile and lasting art form is one that inspires and uplifts, and that praises and glorifies the beauty of life. I honour that life view by trying to ensure I always communicate ideas in ways that likewise inspire and uplift. If someone wants to communicate the idea that good works is the most authentic form of religious expression, then just say so. The author didn't have to denigrate one thing to make his point about another. Create a book title with a positive, life-affirming statement: Good Works: Worship Time Best Spent. This all goes back to my belief and understanding regarding spirituality. Spirituality is not about so-called spiritual truths and what we (think we) know. It has to do with love and kindness, and the consciousness with which we speak and act and carry ourselves in the world. |
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Post by abbylovespits on Apr 7, 2014 13:38:29 GMT
I completely understand and agree. I realize now that this book only awakened a desire to define my own spiritual path. I gave it far too much credit, and while it initially lead me to this forum, what I failed to see was I was actually subscribing to a form of Dogma. Don’t get me wrong this book does and always will hold a special place in my heart, but it no longer represents my spiritual foundation. I have learn in my short time here, that has to be done by looking inward first.
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sparklekaz
Someone asked me.. What is your religion? I said, "All the paths that lead to the light".
Posts: 3,658
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Post by sparklekaz on Apr 7, 2014 14:00:27 GMT
While I totally agree with Baangus's thoughts completely about the title of this book, in that it does come over as derogatory. And may well offend many. I've noticed in the past that author's use controversial titles as a means to draw a wider range of people in to read it, who might not have were it given a more religious or spiritual name. In doing so, I can't help but wonder, if the content of the book will touch more people and make them think, then it would otherwise have done. On the other hand, it might put people off. So it is swings and roundabouts isn't it. Sometimes I think it is those people who are put off by esoteric titles and anything that smacks of religion, who need to read this type of thing, then those who are already comfortable in their faith or walking their spiritual path.
I think I've already made my feelings clear about mutual tolerance and respect for the beliefs of others, so I don't need to reiterate it again. But I'm willing to bet, many more people will have checked out this thread because of it's title and hopefully will take something away from all the replies and different perspectives given. And can relate to the way in which we have all tried to make sense of our spiritual beliefs and inner yearnings to understand our personal need for a spiritual life and how we have tried to find it. As other's have said it is continuous process. One which we all strive to challenge and question what we learn. I believe as Baangus does and love the way he expresses it when he said.. "This all goes back to my belief and understanding regarding spirituality. Spirituality is not about so-called spiritual truths and what we (think we) know. It has to do with love and kindness, and the consciousness with which we speak and act and carry ourselves in the world". It is not about how articulate we are, or how passionate we feel, it is about how we live our lives. Let that speak for us.
Love and light
Kaz
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donq
[img src="[storage.proboards.com/1400695/images/U0vmMtloGmL0onhnuezY.png"]
Posts: 1,283
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Post by donq on Apr 7, 2014 16:25:36 GMT
Thank you everyone. This forum is good. :-)
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cyberangel
~ As above so below, as within so without ~
Posts: 818
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Post by cyberangel on Apr 7, 2014 18:45:34 GMT
Hi All I really and truly agree with Monty there, this forum is, in my opinion, wonderful. It allows you to freely express your experiences, emotions and spiritual development all within a well maintained group. Not everyone will agree equally all the time, over every topic but it allows you to enter and engage into conversation with people you would not necessarily meet with and discuss. This group not only allows one to open their minds but also to spiritually grow through sharing experiences, opinions and diversity. I genuinely love the people here and I feel really blessed for having known each and everyone, whether I agree or not on every single topic or not, I am richer for having 'met' each one of you. Love and Light (Everyone) |
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Post by baangus on Apr 8, 2014 10:34:57 GMT
this book only awakened a desire to define my own spiritual path. Good to hear!  |
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Post by baangus on Apr 8, 2014 11:06:29 GMT
I've noticed in the past that author's use controversial titles as a means to draw a wider range of people in to read it, who might not have were it given a more religious or spiritual name. In doing so, I can't help but wonder, if the content of the book will touch more people and make them think, then it would otherwise have done. Hi Kaz. Obviously that's one reason people do controversial things. I understand that. Guess I'm just old school. The Dancing Wu Li Masters worked fine for Gary Zukav for example. He didn't have to resort to People Without Quantum Brains Haven't Got A Clue in order to attract readers. |
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Post by abbylovespits on Apr 8, 2014 20:11:15 GMT
I have been pondering this – is someone’s attempt to be controversial or shocking taint a message? Is someone yelling “HEY YOU!!!” more likely to turn the heads of a crowd as opposed to someone politely saying “Excuse Me”. I realize I don’t want to be treated as a member of a herd and would always prefer to be politely approached. As I continue learning though the motives are becoming more transparent.
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Post by baangus on Apr 9, 2014 12:22:01 GMT
Hi abby. People try hard to sell whatever they're peddling, and religious and new age individuals are no different. I read something interesting and somewhat related to all this on an internet site a couple days ago. A new age fellow in Arizona who holds seminars is offering an advanced retreat for those who are ready for enlightenment and ascension. (Whatever enlightenment and ascension is supposed to mean, and however it is we're suddenly and magically ready for it!) But with a caveat: the course wasn't open to anyone who hadn't taken his introductory courses; he even stated his advanced course would be a waste of their time or some such thing.
Honestly, the message I get from people like that isn't so much "Hey You!!!" as it is "Look at ME!!!"
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sparklekaz
Someone asked me.. What is your religion? I said, "All the paths that lead to the light".
Posts: 3,658
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Post by sparklekaz on Apr 9, 2014 12:51:43 GMT
I think it's clear that the whole 'new age movement' is as full of people using it as a 'cash cow' as any other area of commerce, with a marketable product. Which will exploit the vulnerable and uninformed. We get people being offered diploma's to become Reiki Masters in a weekend, to those who can become ordained ministers online. I like to think people are discerning enough to see through the obsurdity of this. But there will be many who wont. Who think there is a way of fast tracking what they want, without having to put in the 'work'. Many will learn very hard lessons, but in doing so will learn a lot. It's all part of the growing process. I've been taken in and duped, I've been influenced by those who I trusted, thought were wise and enlightened. I soon realised they were not. And can see on reflection, that was an important part of my 'education', for want of a better word.
Love and light
Kaz
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cyberangel
~ As above so below, as within so without ~
Posts: 818
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Post by cyberangel on Apr 9, 2014 16:37:06 GMT
Hi again folks,
I hope I don’t cause any offense when I say, it seems (to me) that some of this thread is starting to read very much like an 'US' (spiritual) verses 'THEM'(religious, new age, mystics etc). While I can and do agree with a some of what is said (some very good and valid points too), I think it would be a shame if the thread ended up on one trying to outdo the other to make the same or similar point, whereas one embraces each other’s qualities and agree to differ on the rest.
I would really have liked to have heard from someone (who had actually ‘read’ the book and could give a good synopsis of it) as I have learned nothing of what was actually in the book itself by way of quotes, reviews, or of the story itself, but I have learnt a great deal on how people view book titles! I mean what does this book offer the reader (other than the title)? Again there is also very little to nothing actually known about the author. If, going by the response the title alone has got, I wonder what on earth the actual book would reveal!
Love and Light
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Post by baangus on Apr 9, 2014 18:20:00 GMT
I hope I don’t cause any offense when I say, it seems (to me) that some of this thread is starting to read very much like an 'US' (spiritual) verses 'THEM'(religious, new age, mystics etc). ...one embraces each other’s qualities and agree to differ on the rest. Hi cyberangel. No one here is hinting at being good/spiritual compared to bad/religious-new age. Besides, mystics and new age individuals would be the first to claim they're spiritual rather than religious, which would make them an 'US' and not a 'THEM,' would it not? It's never as simple as embracing our differences and leaving things at that. There are relevant discussion points to be made here with regards to the appropriateness and intention of the book title itself, as well as religion and spirituality being used as a marketing tool for personal benefit. And the content of the book itself makes no difference to either discussion. If someone here started a thread called "Buddhism is a lie," or "Crystal healing is fake and doesn't work," I would be just as vocal in my criticism regarding the thread-starter's need to invalidate Buddhism or crystal healing in order to initiate a dialogue. The specifics of their argument would be of no interest to me until they were able to somehow justify why they had to start an attack thread on a subject they obviously have no interest in. |
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