Forgiveness and free agency

[techavenger]

I have been studying the King James Bible, specifically Acts. I am a life long Christian and firmly believe that we all have the right to choose for ourselves (free agency), also that we are commanded to forgive one another of sin in Matthew 18:21-22 "Then came Peter to him, and said, Lord, how oft shall my brother sin against me, and I forgive him? till seven times? Jesus saith unto him, I say not unto thee, Until seven times: but, Until seventy times seven." What I would like to discuss here is how others feel about forgiveness of the unrepentant sinner, or perhaps some insights in how one may be able to temper the forgiveness and ongoing sin. The words of the Savior are clear "Until seventy times seven". This is simple to me, no matter how many sins, we must forgive the sinner. But how do we deal with the destruction the sin leaves in it's wake?

[donq]

Hi Techavenger. Welcome to the forum.

I read Frank R. Stockton's "The Lady, or the Tiger" around 20 years ago but recently just heard it again. (Please bear with me a bit).

Here's its summary from Wikipedia:

A "semi-barbaric" king rules a land sometime in the past. Some of the king's ideas are progressive, but others cause people to suffer. One of the king's innovations is the use of a public trial by ordeal as "an agent of poetic justice", with guilt or innocence decided by the result of chance. A person accused of a crime is brought into a public arena and must choose one of two doors. Behind one door is a lady whom the king has deemed an appropriate match for the accused; behind the other is a fierce, hungry tiger. Both doors are heavily soundproofed to prevent the accused from hearing what is behind each one. If he chooses the door with the lady behind it, he is innocent and must immediately marry her, but if he chooses the door with the tiger behind it, he is deemed guilty and is immediately devoured by the animal.

The king learns that his daughter has a lover, a handsome and brave youth who is of lower status than the princess, and has him imprisoned to await trial. By the time that day comes, the princess has used her influence to learn the positions of the lady and the tiger behind the two doors. She has also discovered that the lady is someone whom she hates, thinking her to be a rival for the affections of the accused. When he looks to the princess for help, she discreetly indicates the door on his right, which he opens.

The outcome of this choice is not revealed. Instead, the narrator departs from the story to summarize the princess's state of mind and her thoughts about directing the accused to one fate or the other, as she will lose him to either death or marriage. She contemplates the pros and cons of each option, though notably considering the lady more. "And so I leave it with all of you: Which came out of the opened door – the lady, or the tiger?"

.....................................

Whenever we deal with our mind (in our case, free agency and forgiveness) we might feel like the princess in the story. If she signaled the door that lead her lover to marry another woman she hated, could she live with that? Or if she signaled the door that lead to the death of her lover, could she live with that?


I believe any spirituality is about to become non-selfishness (or it's called selflessness in Buddhism). The first time we try to forgive the unrepentant sinner, it would be the hardest or even impossible. But it will be easier and easier the next time, for sure. Kind of we are learning (or spiritual conditioned reflex) and getting more and more experience. On the other hand, if we don't try to forgive, it will be harder and harder later for sure. And that means we empower our ego more and more. No need to say here how our ego could make our mind more and more trouble.

[donq]

I forget another question you asked.
"But how do we deal with the destruction the sin leaves in its wake?"

I personally believe that forgiveness has nothing to do with trying to fix the problem. Sure, we cannot fix that unrepentant sinner. No one can. But, at least with forgiveness in our mind, we can find the better solutions, can't we?

[gruntal]

There are so many indirect references in the Christian bible to reincarnation. It seems like the proverbial "you are not ready to receive this yet" when putting yourself in the shoes of the one hearing the cryptic message thousands of years ago.

I would like the think now in the Age of Enlightenment we realize it is OURSELVES we need to forgive infinitely in order to ascend. The only problem is the karmic debt of permitting if not encouraging the others to destroy what was rightfully built or created when we know they are doing the wrong thing. It is not coincidental all the great sages eventually referred to the others as sons and daughters in need of protection until they grew up into adulthood.

[donq]

(I apologize in advance for mentioning Buddhism on this thread)

When I was a law student (40 years ago), I learned that though every person is liable for the consequences of his wrongful act, his criminal sentence still depends on how he did it. Is he just a minor or having an unsound mind? Was it caused willfully/intentionally or negligently (careless)?

Surprisingly, as I used to think (like most people did) that any kind of killing is wrong in Buddhism, even killing insects. Here's the story I read:

Once some monks saw the dead insects, they thought that the venerable monk A killed them.So they reported to the Buddha, "Reverend Sir...the Elder A. killed very many insects."
The Buddha asked them, "But did you see him killing them?"
"No, sir."
"Precisely. As you did not see him, so the same as he did not see these insects. Oh monks, those devoid of influxes have no thought of death."
So, it seemed to me that the Buddha equated the thinking of those monks to "not seeing". And the "not thinking" of the monk A to "not killing".

I mentioned the story above, as I did like what Gruntal said:
"...it is OURSELVES we need to forgive infinitely in order to ascend."

So, forgiving someone when he did something wrong doesn't seem to be as important as forgiving ourselves when we did something wrong (without thinking). That should be our urgent tasks, should it not?

[donq]

I was thinking about what George (Gruntal) said and some quote popped up in my mind:

Lao Tzu said,

“Knowing others is intelligence;

knowing yourself is true wisdom".

Can we say, in our case, that:

"Forgiving others is adultness

Forgiving yourself is insight"?

The question might remain. Unintentionally mistake, even of others, might not be the case as I already mentioned it on my prior post. But what about the intentionally mistakes we made (because we didn't know at the time that it was wrong)?
I believe it's still the same. If there's no forgiveness in our mind, we will never gain freedom and cannot move on. And might only drown in our guilt. What good will come from that? On the contrary, the quicker we can forgive ourselves, the quicker we can do something to make it better (both for ourselves and others).

[mojomojo]

Over the years, I have struggled with many aspects of spirituality, which if we are to be honest, just do not work.
I have come to an understanding, that satisfies my thought process, others may agree or not, that’s your free will.
There is an interplay of rules here on two different plains, the spiritual plain and the earthly plain, the two can often be the opposite of one another.
As regards forgiving those who sin against us, time and time again, on the earthly plain, which is under the rule of man, boiled down to its barest fundamentals, is the rule of, Might is Right.
If you doubt that statement, consider what is going on in the world today.
There are people out there who will be quite happy to take advantage of a spiritual person who is only too willing to forgive, time and time again.
The end result of such a pattern is a decent person who is continually taken advantage of, who’s self esteem, confidence and trust in humanity takes a hit.
Is such a down trodden mind set the way to God.
You have to play by the rules of the game you are immersed in, which is the earthly plain, the rules of man.
Trying to live by the spiritual laws while in the earthly plain puts you at a disadvantage, or does it?
That all depends on how you interpret those rules.
In the Bible it states, And the meek shall inherit the world.
By my understanding, meek means weak, on the earthly plain, that’s never going to happen, history has shown us that, time and time again.
Now a new understanding of the word meek has been approved, now everything fits into place and makes sense.
The word meek, is meant to represent one who is well able and willing to use the sword, but chooses not to.
You will not survive well on the earthly plain if you do not contain within you, that unspoken element, that lets other people know, if they interfere or try to take advantage of you, there will be consequences.
A study was done on a busy New York street, a large man walked a selected route, one person bumped into him and apologised straight away.
Same street, same route, a small man, barely over five foot, walked.
Sixteen people bumped into him, no one apologised.
Back to the spiritual meaning, forgive others who sin against you, as has already been stated, means do not carry it with you, don’t get the mind caught up in past hurts, which is far easier said than done, especially if it’s a constant occurrence.
The simplicity of the matter is, certain spiritual laws do not work on the earthly plain, until everyone is on the same page and if you think you will be exempt from the wrong doings of people on account you have progressed spiritually, think again.
As I have already said, you have to play by the rules of the game you are in.

Mojo.

[donq]

Hi Techavenger,

You might ask yourself if you come to the wrong forum? Why these people seem to be a bit harsh for spiritual forum like this? The truth is, we've known each other for many years. And we don't use any sugar-coated post here anymore.
As for mojomojo, he's not only a spiritual person, a Reiki healer, but also a very realist. (just FYI)
I rarely post reply to any thread about Jesus or god due to my respect (except I thought no one might come to reply). I even try my best to speak as less as possible about Buddhism I know. Besides, this is "the god light" forum anyway, right?
Another point is, I've grown up in the culture that don't understand much about god. Still, we believe in something beyond this worldly/material world (Dhamma, Tao/Dao etc.). As for me, that something even literally saved my life once. Without any scientific explanation, or even rational explanation.

Anyway, the dialogue below really said what I want to say about this, more or less.
(from the movie, Angels & Demons-2009)

Camerlengo (Ewan McGregor),"Do you believe in God, sir?"
Langdon (Tom Hanks), "Father, I simply believe that religion--"
Camerlengo, "I did not ask if you believe what man says about God. I asked if you believe in God."
Langdon, "I'm an academic. My mind tells me I will never...understand God."
Camerlengo,"And your heart?
Langdon,"Tells me I'm not meant to. Faith is a gift...that I have yet to receive."

I know that Langdon (sure, which means Dan Brown, the writer) tried his best to soften this answer, it still was full of honesty. It might be a lot easier for him to just lie that he believed in God so that he would get a result (it was in context that Langdon wanted the permission from Camerlengo to access the archive).
Honestly is sometimes (if not always) painful, but still a gift, is it not?

P.S. Hi, Robert. So glad to see you here. :-) (no need to reply this). 

[gruntal]

I think at some point you need to put your faith and beliefs to the test. Who is really running the show? Call it Jehovah or Jesus or some Ascended Master or even your Aunt Sally acting as your spirit guide ( until she decides to incarnate and then you can be her spirit guide "from the other side"; is there really such a thing as Devine Intervention ? If not then there is no help available; if so then there is a master plan in effect and no mortal can contradict it.

But even more telling is if we are destined to grow up to be puppets or willing participants ? The latter suggests we have a number of choices to follow our orders but the goal is pretty much pre decided ....