Compassion question

[zeta]

A friend and I talk about this often. 

I work on this all the time, catching myself sitting in judgement of myself and others and working on acknowledging and letting it go.

I have a friend who is Buddhist who believes that co passion is also giving. Not just sitting without judgement, but if a person asks for money, give it. No matter how many times or how often. No matter if the person giving the money can not pay their bills. 

At what point does compassion and non-judgement and helping; co-dependency? 

how does one draw the line, or the line never drawn? 

would it not be selfish to help a person out of every opportunity to learn from the cause a effects of life? 

is that not a point of ego, wanting to rescue?

or is everything I have written judgement and no longer a valid discussion point? 

it seems to be like a snake eating it’s tail.

I would appreciate some clarity.

thank you

[gruntal]

At some point being an " enabler " is doing the other a disservice. You would actually expect to do karma eventually to compensate for doing this. An example is giving someone ( more ) money as opposed to just letting them keep what they have even if it was stolen from you. Revenge would be taking it back although we could justify that as Poetic Revenge .

No matter what you would go broke eventually unless the Cosmos was blessing you for doing the right thing.

An ideal scenario is freely sharing what you have to those that formerly refused charity. In that I guess you are passing judgement on who is worthy but then it could also be thought of as rewarding another who deserved it ...

[aceofcups]

Hi Zeta

my two cents on challenging question.

Every moment, every situation every relationship activity with others of any kind has their own karmic forces playing themselves out, sometimes from past conditioning others less so -- until we become what is called Enlightened.

Is there one Correct way to proceed in EVERY situation? Maybe yes, maybe no.

To me we are multidimensional beings.. having a personality self ( which include our physical, emotional and mental fields of consciousness. We also have our inner self and higher more spiritual levels of consciousness within us.

Where our focus of attention is at any moment we are interacting in any situation effects how we will react and also affects the results.

Becoming a more aware individual is the process of evolution on the spiritual path of our lives.

Ultimately each situation with another person has it's own energy process, some choices help us to balance our karmic blueprint others add to our karmic residue. But we are not aware of our karmic bank account and it's balance or not... and maybe we don't need to be.

Maybe we just need to just be as compassionate as we can in each situation. But being compassion it each situation also contains discernment of what is the right thing to do at each moment each situation.  not easy

possible example -- Being compassionate to a alcoholic or drug dealer would not be giving them what they ask you for or what they want. The choices we make is sometimes challenging in learning how to be truly Compassionate - and the best way to do that.

Being Compassionate is Having an Open Heart and also being Wise.  The compassion ( being one with) Ultimately has to take place on the level of consciousness of one Higher Self to another Higher Self.

ace

[donq]

Hi Zeta,

I've found we always "project" what it should be out there, instead of trying to "see" what it really is. In this case, a compassion in Buddhism.
(FYI: I've been a Buddhist for more than 60 years, though more than a latter half of my life, I have tried my best to detach myself from those projections in Buddhism).

I believe it's boiled down to its "context". In one context, it's true that "time and tide waits for no man", but in another context, it's also true that "slow and steady wins the race".
So, I think "always giving the money, even you cannot pay the bills" might be true in only the context of dealing with stinginess in ourselves, which helps to letting go more and more for developing our higher minds/selves. Compare to a hero who helps other no matter what might cause him.
But it another context, says, the parents always give money to their kids every time they ask for it. What will happen for sure? Those spoiled kids will grow without knowing that they have to work hard before they can get those moneys. And there will never be easy money like that in the real life.

You said, "I work on this all the time, catching myself sitting in judgement of myself and others and working on acknowledging and letting it go....".
Here is the different context from above. You are dealing with your inner self, to develop your higher self. Watching yourself; aware of yourself: hence mindfulness. The highest goal of mindfulness is watching, seeing, and letting it go. That's all. Because if you do not let it go after seeing it, you will be drowned by those kinds of thoughts, judgement etc. And once you let it, it will never stop, and you might not be able to see yourself anymore. Which means no mindfulness/awareness

You asked, "At what point does compassion and non-judgement and helping; co-dependency?"
-First, let me bother you with some details here:
Buddhism divided into two sects: Mahayana and Hinayana. The Mahayana sect, which means ‘Great Vehicle’ in Sanskrit, and The Hinayana sect, meaning ‘Small Vehicle’.
Mahayana believe we should help other first, even we cannot get or delay our enlightenment because of that.
Hinayana believe we should get enlightenment first before we can help others. Really help.
I consider myself to be both Hinayana AND Mahayana Buddhist. I believe they are all true in their "contexts".
Let's say something a bit supernatural here. The more someone develops real compassion in herself/himself, the more the others could "feel' the vibration? (Another example, dogs really have good nose to sense between the good guys and the bad guys, even they didn't train for this). A dog wags its tail to a compassionate person while barks at another one who's even trying to give it a food.
But non-judgement always come first. You cannot have real compassion if you don't aware of yourself. Really aware. Some people could easily fake their compassion while giving this and that to others. That has nothing to do with the real compassion, nor the higher self.

You asked, "how does one draw the line, or the line never drawn?"
-You are asking the question that divided Buddhism into two. I believe it's always a blurred line. And it depends (on its context). There's a saying in my country, "a short man carrying a hunchback" which means "drown not thyself to save a drowning man" in English. The more you develop yourself to be a better swimmer, the more you can really help someone who is drowning. But that doesn't mean you could not try if, and only if you know you might be able to help. Otherwise, you and the other might be drowned together.

"is that not a point of ego, wanting to rescue?" would it not be selfish to help a person out of every opportunity to learn from the cause a effects of life?"
-This is a very good question. Yes, sometimes it's our ego. Wanting to be a hero. Getting applause. That's all. Again, seeing yourself comes first. If you "see" that you really want to help out of your genuine compassion, then it's not ego. And it will only be selfish if, and only if, you "know" you could help, but you still don't even try. Again, seeing/knowing yourself comes first.

You asked, "or is everything I have written judgement and no longer a valid discussion point?"
-No. You asked very good questions because you wanted to know, and learn. But don't cling to these questions for too long. Like anything else, if you want to develop your awareness/mindfulness more and more, just watching/seeing and letting them go. Or it will be like, as you said, a snake eating it’s tail.

DonQ
P.S. Recently I might not be able to come here so often like before. Just FYI.

[donq]

Hi Zeta,

First I hesitated to add this as it would be so boring (with Pali) and it had nothing to do with practical compassion? Anyway, this is Buddhism thread, so here it is (warning: it will be very boring):

It seems there's a bit of different meanings between compassion in English and compassion in Buddhism.
In English compassion is:
-a strong feeling of sympathy and sadness for the suffering or bad luck of others and a wish to help them
-sympathetic consciousness of others' distress together with a desire to alleviate it.
While in Buddhism there are two words concerning compassion.
1. Mettà: loving-kindness; friendliness; goodwill. The willingly wish/desire to alleviate others' suffering.
2. Karunà: The willingly wish/desire for happiness of others.
So, it seems compassion in English already includes both Karunà (compassion) and Mettà

Back to your question, compassion doesn't mean you need to really give something (materials etc.) for helping others. Just your wish/will is enough. That's why priests, monks, spiritual persons and those who don't have much (money etc.) to give might even have the same compassion as (or even more than) those who can afford to give material things for helping others.

So, the real question is, always giving money to others is really helping or hurting them (in the sense that we are spoiling them, and it will never really fix their problems this way, doesn't it?).

In Buddhism, there's also something called "Brahmavihàra" or "holy abiding; sublime states of mind". More than compassion are Mudità (happy for others' happiness; sympathetic joy; altruistic joy) and Upekkhà (equanimity; neutrality; poise).
The last one, Upekkhà is very important. In short, it means being calm no matter what has happened or is going to happen, and letting go of everything.

[zeta]

Nov 17, 2021 1:57:46 GMT gruntal said:

At some point being an " enabler " is doing the other a disservice. You would actually expect to do karma eventually to compensate for doing this. An example is giving someone ( more ) money as opposed to just letting them keep what they have even if it was stolen from you. Revenge would be taking it back although we could justify that as Poetic Revenge .

No matter what you would go broke eventually unless the Cosmos was blessing you for doing the right thing.

An ideal scenario is freely sharing what you have to those that formerly refused charity. In that I guess you are passing judgement on who is worthy but then it could also be thought of as rewarding another who deserved it ...

That does encapsulate the dilemma. That you for your response.

[zeta]

Nov 17, 2021 4:39:51 GMT aceofcups said:

Hi Zeta

my two cents on challenging question.

Every moment, every situation every relationship activity with others of any kind has their own karmic forces playing themselves out, sometimes from past conditioning others less so -- until we become what is called Enlightened.

Is there one Correct way to proceed in EVERY situation? Maybe yes, maybe no.

To me we are multidimensional beings.. having a personality self ( which include our physical, emotional and mental fields of consciousness. We also have our inner self and higher more spiritual levels of consciousness within us.

Where our focus of attention is at any moment we are interacting in any situation effects how we will react and also affects the results.

Becoming a more aware individual is the process of evolution on the spiritual path of our lives.

Ultimately each situation with another person has it's own energy process, some choices help us to balance our karmic blueprint others add to our karmic residue. But we are not aware of our karmic bank account and it's balance or not... and maybe we don't need to be.

Maybe we just need to just be as compassionate as we can in each situation. But being compassion it each situation also contains discernment of what is the right thing to do at each moment each situation.  not easy

possible example -- Being compassionate to a alcoholic or drug dealer would not be giving them what they ask you for or what they want. The choices we make is sometimes challenging in learning how to be truly Compassionate - and the best way to do that.

Being Compassionate is Having an Open Heart and also being Wise.  The compassion ( being one with) Ultimately has to take place on the level of consciousness of one Higher Self to another Higher Self.

ace

Thank you ace, I have read your insights several times and I can see what you are saying. 

[zeta]

DonQ,

Thank you also for your response. 

insert quote here Let's say something a bit supernatural here. The more someone develops real compassion in herself/himself, the more the others could "feel' the vibration? (Another example, dogs really have good nose to sense between the good guys and the bad guys, even they didn't train for this). A dog wags its tail to a compassionate person while barks at another one who's even trying to give it a food.
But non-judgement always come first. You cannot have real compassion if you don't aware of yourself. Really aware. Some people could easily fake their compassion while giving this and that to others. That has nothing to do with the real compassion, nor the higher self.

Just as people meet and recognize the vibrations of others. 

I wonder if when our ego is involved, if it creates that dopamine response an artificial high

insert quote here I believe it's always a blurred line. And it depends (on its context). There's a saying in my country, "a short man carrying a hunchback" which means "drown not thyself to save a drowning man" in English

Ah, yes

insert quote hereJust your wish/will is enough.

Like blessing a person with abundance. Would this move the ego out of the way? 

insert quote hereIn short, it means being calm no matter what has happened or is going to happen, and letting go of everything.

The calm pond?

Most importantly to acknowledge it and then let it go, not Yin or Yang, but “is”. 

Is this why, as one lives and learns the live we live seems so full of wonder and yet, so quiet?

Less questions?

It is the stillness of knowing, when the vibration becomes the still pond and we live between the breaths?


Thank you all for responding. You have all help me find the words of what I feel and have brought new understanding!

Zeta

[zeta]

I am sorry, I have not quite gotten the hang of how to quote yet. I will keep practicing.

[donq]

Hi Zeta,

I,"Just your wish/will is enough."
You,"Like blessing a person with abundance. Would this move the ego out of the way?"
I,"Hmm...yes and no. Will answer this below.

You, "I wonder if when our ego is involved, if it creates that dopamine response an artificial high"
I,"I don't know much about dopamine, so I did some search. Here's from somewhere on the internet (for other readers here):

-Dopamine is the “feel good” neurotransmitter. For example, suppose your “go-to” comfort food is homemade double chocolate chip cookies. Your brain may increase dopamine when you smell them baking or see them come out of the oven. When you eat them, the flood of dopamine acts to reinforce this craving and focus on satisfying it in the future.
It’s a cycle of motivation, reward, and reinforcement.
Now imagine that you’ve been longing for those cookies all day, but your co-workers scarfed them down when you were sidetracked by a conference call. Your disappointment might lower your dopamine level and dampen your mood. It might also intensify your desire for double chocolate chip cookies. Now you want them even more.

If I understand it right, Dopamine is both a hero and a villain. It can make you feel both good and bad. Compassion might be the same. And from your question, while blessing a person with abundance (compassion) could move the ego out of the way, it also can turn to be another ego (a villain). Kind of the more you love, the more you easily getting hurt. This is why it's stressed so much in Buddhism about letting go of everything, even compassion itself. Or you might "cling" to it and turn it to be another ego. On the one hand, abundance compassion helps to shoo away your ego; on the other hand, it also could you feel so good about (and clinging to) yourself more and more, hence enhancing your ego more and more.

I,"In short, it means being calm no matter what has happened or is going to happen, and letting go of everything."
You,"The calm pond?"
I,"Yes. There's a saying in Buddhism like this, "The original (natural) mind is like a (calm) pond but is sullied once any mental defilement has visited.'"

You, "Most importantly to acknowledge it and then let it go, not Yin or Yang, but 'is'."
I,"Well said. Or accepting and enhancing dopamine as it's good for your health, and then let it go as it could also bad for your health. Dopamine itself is not good nor bad. It's just "is". And there are both yin and yang in everything."

You,"Is this why, as one lives and learns the live we live seems so full of wonder and yet, so quiet?
I,"This reminds me about the sadness of learning in Ecclesiastes:

"For in much wisdom is much grief: and he that increaseth knowledge increaseth sorrow".

While the more you learn and know the world, really know, the more you might become wiser. But it also can make you get more sorrow. Stop learning is not a good idea. But you can learn to be more and more quiet to deal with your sorrow. Does that make sense?

You, "Less questions?"

I,"No. Feel free to ask. I like that you asked the heavy questions. It helps me think. Hence also learning. It's just that sometimes it might take me a bit longer to come back. 

DonQ

[zeta]

Donq,  

Thank you for answering! I do not mind it taking a while for an answer. It takes me a few reads to understand.