To err is human, to forgive divine.

[mojomojo]

I have often wondered about forgiveness and its impact on society, we are told to only see the good in others, to see anything else drags us back to the ego mind, as Mother Teresa said, "everyday, I see Jesus Christ in his many distressing states."
But seeing this reality as an illusion, has never really worked for me, we are here, acting as if, it isint real, leads to disassociation, which may also be part of establishing the new mind set.
Is it the same thing, to go through the motions, even though in our hearts, forgiveness maybe absent, can we honestly state it is in our own best interests, when the offender may go free.
If the principle of forgiveness was applied by those abused by priests of the catholic church, would that abuse be still going on today, or do we abide by forgiveness, knowing full well, all is taken care of.

[gruntal]

Although we are taught to stop thinking about ourselves selfishly as distinct separate vulnerable individuals I suppose there is always some level of reality where we need to get something in return. Something specific to ourselves as a reward So at some level forgiveness is universal: we recognize no body ever did anything we have not did ourselves. We forgive the others as a way to forgive ourselves. But at another level we are the recipient of every justice and injustice we met out to the others. The only was to eliminate pain is to stop causing it - in the others and to our self.

Doing the right thing is akin to removing your hand from the fire because it hurts to get burned.

So forgiveness is actually the ultimate form of control. It goes beyond revenge. You bind your enemy in ways they can never get out of. Mainly their conscience. In a way you actually destroy them - at least their ego. Are you ready to do that? Isn't that a bit mean ?

But as for the problem of abuse I can only observe - quite eloquently - there are two types of abuse. One is to take unfair advantage of power and the other is to deny the power you possess. Even as the sorry list of victims over the ages is even sorrier considering the people punished for doing naught but trying to put a spot light on the hidden evil.

I remember in the 6th grade there was a girl that many of the boys treated badly. They thought she had "cooties". They made her life miserable. I didn't see anything wrong with her but I was reluctant to get involved less they start picking on me! In retrospect I could have "gone for broke" and risked rocking the boat and making many enemies. I could have stood up to the teacher and said: "are you really that stupid you can't see what is going on right under your nose?". "Why don't you do anything about it?". Would they have thrown me out of school for sassing the teach' ? But ultimately I would have felt very good about myself by taking a stand and enjoying the benefits of being a decent guy.

Not the least of which might be the joy of actually experiencing a level of character I could be proud of ....

[mojomojo]

Yes, that thought has crossed my mind before, to with hold forgiveness, is to prevent the abuser from moving on as well as self, but are we taking for granted everyone wants to move on, or is that a given. It all falls back to the same thing really, to move above the level of duality, to go through the motions, neither re-acting to experiences of a negative or positive nature.

Maybe thats what the performance artist, Marina Abramovic, had in mind at one of her shows. Taking a submissive stance, she placed seventy two objects on a table, some of these could be used for pleasure, while some could inflict great harm.
She placed herself at the mercy of her audience, and gave them free will to do with her what they wished. It was obvious at the end of her show, some of her clientele were of a negative nature, with clothes torn from her body, and slash marks suggesting a knife may have been on the table, but Im sure someone used the white feather or maybe a band-aid. Either way it was just a show.
No wonder its such a hard sell.

[gruntal]

At one level the church and later the state just existed as a power entity and was reluctant to give that all up. But at another level was the philosophy that humans were inherently evil. Hence the Ten Commandments and capital punishment and dictators to keep us in line. The birth of democracy and the spiritual movement relied on a different scenario: we already knew right from wrong and just needed the freedom and knowledge to be ourselves.

It is ironic that things that do not exist to be nice or helpful accomplish just that and charity by the system becomes so corrupt and hurtful. I have wondered if people contaminate the good or if they just over ride the evil when evil becomes unacceptable. If I meet my dog a million years from now would he bite and kill me or invite me in for love and companionship? I would like to think everything is naturally evolving in a positive way and the future will be a blessing. And not just because the bad were removed from us and sent to the Hot Place ...

[aceofcups]

Just some thoughts that came to my mind when reading over posts in thread here:

The energy of forgiveness is part of the energy of the planet Neptune and what it's energy represents.   Has to do with the emotions and feeling with things like forgiveness, sacrifice, surrender,, very much a key part of the energy related to the era of the Piscean Age and some fundamentals of Christianity.

What happens energetically when we truly forgive?... (not the false, selfish and control wanting forgiveness mention in some of posts here).   I think true forgiveness effects our astral emotional field and allows higher forces to come in and hopefully to clean out negative energy patterns in our auric field but it has to be truly sincere - we can't fool our Higher Self.

Forgiveness is not central criteria with let's say Buddhism per say but may touch upon it to some degree as it is presented as an extension of patience or of compassion and perhaps loving-kindness meditations.    Buddhism is not as general rule a watery Piscean or Neptunian ruled practice.

It seems to be the difference of surrendering of the ego and letting go of ego via non-attachment.  Maybe both have their time and place in our spiritual paths.

[donq]

Hi everyone,

First, let me quote Gruntal:

"I remember in the 6th grade there was a girl that many of the boys treated badly. They thought she had "cooties". They made her life miserable. I didn't see anything wrong with her but I was reluctant to get involved less they start picking on me! In retrospect I could have "gone for broke" and risked rocking the boat and making many enemies. I could have stood up to the teacher and said: "are you really that stupid you can't see what is going on right under your nose?". "Why don't you do anything about it?". Would they have thrown me out of school for sassing the teach'? But ultimately I would have felt very good about myself by taking a stand and enjoying the benefits of being a decent guy."

I don't like politics all my life. Besides, I consider myself to be a spiritual person. Still, I joined a political contest here once (you might have heard about it, about the corrupted Prime minister here). I joined not because I was into politics that much but I would like to share to same things as the like-minded people: sleeping on the street; using non-violence to deal with tear gas, armed soldiers and tanks etc. To make to long short, one dictator went, another one came. It always like that. Always.
That time, my country was literally devided into two: even some couples got divorced just because the difference of political views.

I always wonder why people have so opposite views like that? Or they know what is right in their hearts but are too afraid to do something? In Gruntal's case, why those boys (not the ringleader himself) agreed to treat that poor girl badly?

I do understand whar Robert tried to say here. In my country, there are more than 70-80% of corrupted monks who are not the real monks. Please understand that I myself was ordained a monk once and had studied the real Buddhism so hard and has been into (serious) spirituality for more than 35 years, so I know what I'm talking about. I'm sure that if the Buddha came back and see what happens to his nowadays disciples, he would never believe his eyes.

Back to Robert's point: for some poeple who really know what happens, how they forgive those fake monks and do nothing? It that the true spiritual way, forgiveness? Or do they contaminate the good and they just override the evil when evil becomes unacceptable? (Gruntal's words)

Frankly speaking, I don't know. One thing I do know is there are always new ringleaders. In the spritual context, no way we can fight them all. Sure, in another context, it would be another story. So, do you want to be a good man/hero who fights the demons without or you want to be a spritual person who fights only the demons within?

Another example comes to my mind: if I were a good soldier/policeman and saw some bandits going to rape and kill some innocent girls, wouldn't I kill those bandits to protect those girls? But if I were, say, a monk in that situation, what else would I do except forgive them or at best, try to talk to them which would never work for sure.