My soul rejects the system

[pami619]

Mar 29, 2017 9:51:11 GMT mojomojo said:

I apologize first before I write these few lines, as they very well may infringe upon the thoughts, beliefs of others.
The more I reflect on my past experiences and read the discussions here, the more disillusioned I become with the whole spiritual thing.
While everyone has the right to live their own life in whatever way they wish, and I`am not trying to interfere with anyone`s rights, I can only give my opinion.
From my experience, deciding what to do with ones life at an early age, can be a hard ask, personally I never knew what I wanted to be, but that does not change the fact that you must do something, if boiled down to essentials, and you had to pay your own way, what choice would you have.
Pami, you asked if to be homeless, would be the worst thing, or to be the greediest, close your eyes for one minute, imagine you where in a situation where all relations and friends could not reach out to you, there was no help.
Imagine you are soaking wet and freezing, you haven`t eaten all day, night time is coming, its getting colder by the minute and you have no where to go, and this you go through day in, day out.
For some people things just seem to fall in place, I`m not one of them, in this day and age, you have to stand up and go for what you want and yes there may be a little bit of greed involved, it does not mean you must take it to extremes.
From my experience, spirituality will not fix the practicalities of life, putting all your effort into spirituality, means you neglect the other, while we can afford to do these things at an early age, there is a time limit, ageism does exist and the clock ticks for everyone.
There are far too many misconceptions about spirituality, leading people to lofty ideals, and that is all they are.

There may be many very good people in this world, but the media can give us a distorted view at times, again I may be about to upset some people.
For every story portrayed there is always the other side and which one you believe is up to you, but it does mean some people are in denial.
Mother Tersea was proclaimed a saint by the very institution, whose coffers were fed by the vast donations her charity received, very little of the money went into the care of the people, who practically lay on the floor, dying, with constantly re-used blunt needles and nuns with just basic medical training, who were not qualified to tell if someone was curable or incurable. The philosophy of the place was you are suffering for Jesus, it was good to suffer for the soul.
Her often used phrase for suffering was, "Jesus is kissing you", to which her dying patient replied, "Tell Jesus to stop kissing me."
Maybe, Mother Tersea really believed in suffering for Jesus and when her time came lay down beside the rest and suffered with them.
No, that did not happen, Mother Tersea went to the finest medical institutes to have cataract surgery, a pacemaker fitted and to spend her final days, an extreme case of do as I say, and not as I do.
As I said believe what you want, but the facts sit there for everyone to see.

I extremely agree with you.
Let me first talk about the "go after what you want" type of a thing
but by going after what I want aren't I going after what "I am beign offered", and many of you would agree with me and go after what is the safest, what is the most stable path.
I would be honest and hope Karen reads it, whatever I'm thinking on doing isn't because I want to help people but because I want to help myself so I could buy this to myself so I could go where I want to.
I think for me to really want something would include me wanting to help people whatever the case is.
I intuitively feel I wouldn't find exactly what is for me until I bump into few things.
Obligatory I know I have to face school, the system and whatever I am ordered because as others said "better be safe than sorry".
I agree about Mother Teresa, I never really got the greatest vibe out of her, now I understand why.
Well with your statements I will go about the same with Hitler, was he really the most evil person in the world or simply the media painted him to be.
I have family and close friends who see the other side of him and for that he is well respected.
Was he fighting purposely because he was narcissistic and hated Jews or its because he knew that someday they would rule the world as they are now with their evil agendas.
Maybe some aren't into to the Illuminati propaganda but I do believe it exists.
Fact is the human race has always been self destructive and we have to accept it.
There isn't the nicest human beign in the world or the worst human beign the world.
As my history teacher told me before, there aren't bad people in this world because for some they wouldn't be labeled as such.
And yes I agree spirituality cannot fix everything I think it goes hand in hand with practicalities.

[pami619]

Mar 29, 2017 13:04:31 GMT sparklekaz said:

Hi Robert,

Your words could never infringe on the personal beliefs and ideals of others, because your thoughts, ideas and beliefs are every bit as important and valid. I very much hear and empathize with how you feel Robert. Fundimentally, I have also found that the more aware I become, the more I see the inequality, harshness and cruelty of the world we live in. I do not believe being spiritually aware removes us from the world, where we exist in some kind of rarified bubble of delusion. Where everything is all love and light. Quite the opposite. Not, untouched by the suffering of others, and removed from suffering ourselves. If anything, I think for some, it makes it more apparent and amplified. Its very hard.

I remember you once saying in a previous post of yours, that trying to be spiritual in this world, is trying to play the game of life by rules that no one else recognizes or abides by. Which makes us vulnerable and weak. How those qualities we try to embody, are often used against us. The metaphorical stick, used to beat us over the head. I can totally resonate with those sentiments. So what do we do. Play the game by the rules of a society that we both agree I think, is pretty sick. Or try to live by our moral standards and spiritual ethos. And associate accordingly with people who embody the same qualities. And by that I mean anyone, not just those who say they are 'spiritual'. Because all spiritual is to my mind, is a label that we've attached to compassionate, loving and emotionally intelligent people. Who are also have a humanitarian conscience. I also do not see being spiritual as being weak, if anything for some it will give them an inner strength. Where they can choose how to react to any given situation. Applying whatever degree of strength that they feel it requires. Be that walking away or standing strong and asserting themselves.

I agree totally, with what you have said about the harsh reality of homelessness. I felt you put your point across in a most heartfelt and eloquent way. It is a desperately sad and degrading way to have to live. No one should not have a roof over their head in this day and age. I am ashamed that nothing has been done to remedy this. I pray that one day soon no one should ever have to live this way. I am sure if Pami thinks again about what she has said in respect of this, that she will see that she has spoken thoughtlessly about something she has no true understanding of.

You said "From my experience, spirituality will not fix the practicalities of life, putting all your effort into spirituality, means you neglect the other, while we can afford to do these things at an early age, there is a time limit, ageism does exist and the clock ticks for everyone. There are far too many misconceptions about spirituality, leading people to lofty ideals, and that is all they are." I think the mistake here is when people see spirituality as separate from normal life. When in truth it permeates every aspect of it. Spirituality is supposed to enhance our understanding, and give us the tools to deal with life better. At least this is how I see it. There is a danger in the thinking that you refer to. Many have given up everything, family, friends and jobs to focus all their energy and time on spiritual practice. Callously dropping people from their circle who did not believe as they do. Hurting those who love them. Justifying what they do by thinking they can do as they please, as long as they can attach it to the belief that it is for their 'highest good' or from a 'higher philosophical perspective'. There is nothing that can justify selfishness and cruelty. I believe it is the very antithesis of being spiritual.

You are right there is a lot of misconception and ignorance. And human nature being what it is, you will always get those who will justify their actions by tailoring their spiritual beliefs to justify this behaviour. That isn't spiritual. Its so complex Robert isn't it. At the end of the day, we are not responsible for other people's behaviour, only our own. The world will continue as it always has. I doubt we will ever see a utopian humanitarian world. Maybe our dsecendants will, but not I think before they have been taught some harsh lessons. Lets hope that they don't destroy themselves and the world in the process. For now, we must all forge our own paths. With each other for support and companionship along the way.

Love and light
Kaz

I strongly agree with you, there is nothing I can differentiate on with your opinion.
As you said spirituality also helps us psychologically because that's why we are here for, to become aware and to grow from that.
Media, system has tried so hard to separate us from it but it always exists and always will.
And regarding beign homeless, I mentioned that because it is probably the worst state a human beign can reach because we allow it but I disagree the lowest point a human beign can reach is living in a prison mind and degrading thoughts.
We were taught since little to fear the homeless life although it cannot be avoided or fixed because some don't want to as you pointed out.
But we can always, always help people if we are in touch with our own hearts.
There's a quote I would never forget:
"Some feel uncomfortable with something about you because they haven't reached this part of themselves" pardon me I don't know the exact words but this is how I understand it.
Whether it be body shaming, it is all reflected from within, speaking from own experience I was bullied almost my entire childhood for beign overweight but now I do understand them and their reasons.
I have already forgiven them and set them free.

[donq]

Hi Robert,

It's so true about the case of "do as I say, and not as I do".

Once one of my friends visited me at my forest temple. As you might remember about the pre-school children development center that I was help my spiritual teacher (An abbot) running there for helping poor villagers. Anyway, my friend worked for a NGO. She tried too much to show off that she was so special. She wore only worse dress in every occasions, to name but a few, even it was inappropriate (she got high salary and she was from a rich family). Out of my curiousity, I asked her what the brand name of the underwear she was wearing. She was so mad at me and replied sarcastically that she wore only coconut shells. What did it mean? It was not a rude question, I was sure, because we were so close friends. So, that only meant because she was wearing something very exotic and expensive? Hmm....  

[donq]

Hi Pami,

This thread was full of warm and friendship, like a sharing group. (the A.A. group? ). Why did I and everyone honestly/eagerly want to response to you? It was because of your personality. In the other hand, somehow you made me (and others) want to response. And while I was trying to response, I also had to go deeper and deeper into my inner self. Thanks.
So, please feel free to ask, and I believe everyone here will be glad to response.

P.S. My first impression about Karen was she was unfriendly. She reminded me of my fierce English teacher when I was a boy in my school (I also told her that). But I found later that I was so wrong. And she become one of my dear friends here. She is an Irish but she doesn't care even I'm not I-rich (I'm poor and I'm Asian. ) and accept me as one of her friends.  

[mojomojo]

Very true Donq,
wherever we find mankind, deceit and deception are close by, it has always stunned me the levels mankind will go in pursuit of greed.I have always thought man could not treat man in such a way, therefore man is not man, or is influenced by something outside of himself.
Have you ever been in a large crowd when things turn ugly, it seems an energy rises and turns things into a frenzy, where people end up doing things they normally would not.
Educated men tell us the level of intelligence of a crowd, falls to just above that of the lowest, no wonder crowds are so volatile.
In my questioning and searching, I have come to realize we sit on the tail of a very large monster, all exits are covered, others lead us not where we think.
I have a question for you Donq, if I may be so bold, in meditation the experts tell us to ignore all visions, having experienced these visions myself, which can be quite powerful, it seems a difficult ask.
Why do they tell us to ignore all visions?

[sparklekaz]

Hi Pami,

I want to thank you so much for starting this thread. Please do not underestimate your own thoughts and perceptions because they are all valid. And are based on your experiences of life so far. The only advantage, if I can call it that, is that Monty (donq) Robert (mojomojo) and I have a few extra years on you and so can share with you from a broader perspective. I think its important to remember also, that we do not have all the answers. Quite the contrary, as I think you have been able to gather from our conversations with you. Our thoughts and beliefs have undergone many changes over the years; and are still changing.

It is also believed by many spiritual masters, that at any moment no matter how old or young we are, we can be blessed with moments of pure insight that transcends all else. Which is not based on experience or learning, but on divine illumination. And the other most important bit of advice I can give you, which is attributed to Lord Buddha which goes something like this. "Believe nothing, no matter where you read it, or who has said it, not even if I have said it. Unless it agrees with your own reason, and your own common sense". This too is part of spiritual development. The practice of discernment. I have found this philosophy to have stood me in good stead over the years. Just keep being open, keep talking to different people. Just be you and you'll be fine.

Hi Monty, you do make me smile. I can't imagine why I reminded you of your 'fierce' English teacher, when we first met. Those who know me, would find that very funny. Because in reality I am totally the opposite of that. I can only imagine, that our first few meetings were in chat. And I had to tell off some unruly guests and members or boot some trolls lol Thank goodness you hung around long enough to change your mind about that.

Hi Robert,

I agree with you that mankind does often exhibit the most base of human behaviour. But, like I keep on banging my drum for the good guys I think it is also important to remember that humanity is also capable of great courage, self sacrifice, love and compassion. We think of ourselves as sophisticated and civilized human beings, living in the 21st Century. Then all anyone has to do is turn on the news and see images of starving people, living in conditions where there is no food and water. Or, barbarism, where innocents are decapitated, tortured and suffering under terrible abuse. How can we have this happen. How can one part of the world have so much, and others so little. There is so much suffering and inequality. So what do we do. We can harp on about how awful it is, and how bad man is, or we can do our bit to help. As Dr Seuss would say "Unless someone like you cares a whole awful lot, nothing is going to get better. No its not." and Desmond Tutu said "Do your little bit of good where you are; It's those little bits of good put together that overwhelm the world."

Love and light
Kaz

[donq]

It's so late into the night here and I'm sorry in advance if there will be many typos here.  

Hi Pami,

Your father words were so true. Yes,  life is about balance. You will meditate better if your body is better. But if you indulge (pamper, spoil) your body too much, it will weaken your mind. See the paradox?  Hence a balance is needed.
About quitting, there are steps in spiritual practice in Buddhism, it's a bit hard to translate it into English. It goes like this, "decrease, depart, discard, quit and finally being free". This is the correct way not to return to its vicious cycle again in the future. And going cold turkey works only for someone.

Hi Robert,

You asked, "I have a question for you Donq, if I may be so bold, in meditation the experts tell us to ignore all visions, having experienced these visions myself, which can be quite powerful, it seems a difficult ask. Why do they tell us to ignore all visions?"

Hmm...I think (from the nature of my vipassana meditation), we are warned about the attachment to whatever precious gem we might find along the way (to your ultimate spiritual goal) and waste your time there. It's some kind of devil's trap luring is from the right path. Anyway, there's also an dangerous of  ignoring all visions too soon (beforehand). I mean, ignoring all visions should be en, not the means. If we are not ready, it means we are not ready. We should not try to skip any necessary steps.
Hope this answer your question.

Hi Karen,

Here's some photos of Cohen.

[mojomojo]

Hi Donq,
thank you for your answer, it was as I had expected.
I can only conclude from a logical viewpoint, that if outside influences attempt to lead us astray, by these visions, what the visions suggest must also be a detour from the right path, as is stated in Christian spiritualism, demons can come as angels of light to deceive.
I have a hard time understanding, when ones experiences, lead us to believe we are on the right path, that we can still be influenced by spiritual negativity, is it a two way street, where neither one has the upper hand, a free for all, and mankind's mind the prize.
Surely a channel opened up, as we are led to believe, for good purposes, should not be a portal for negativity.
Are we left to believe that entering spirituality is a free for all, and we, the trophy, or is it a case of complete lock down, with the tactic of, you catch more flies with honey, than vinegar, and then the fundamental practices of moving in small increments, so as, to avoid detection, until a foothold has been gained.

It must sound like I have become slightly paranoid, trust me I have not, but something behind all this, is not right.

[donq]

Hi Robert,

Let me tell you a true story. My teacher of my spiritual teacher invented a very new method of mindfulness practice, so that his disciples would conveniently practiced it. Anyway, it turned out that many of his disciples addicted (cling) to that method until never gave up, even when he told them to do so. They even walked away and had their old schools and disciples.

In Buddhist meditation, there is a warning about this. After some years of meditation, a meditator might get some supernatural power (clairvoyance, mind reading etc., to name but a few). There is not just a myth, as there's a science supporting it which is called, parapsychology. Let's say that those powers really helped the meditator (or even helped him to help others) in one way or another, the question is still the same: why did he meditate in the first place? To get those powers? Some yogis in the ancient time meditated just ot get these powers. They could live without any food for days, could voluntary slow down their heartbeats etc. Medical science also accept that it's real and it's called "biofeedback" (Biofeedback is a technique you can use to learn to control your body's functions, such as your heart rate etc.). But again, we meditate for those results?

There's no right and wrong about the answer. Someone might satisfies with the biofeedback result or any powers he got but someone might not. Neither the Buddha.The story told that he got so many of those supernatural powers when he studied with two famous spiritual teachers (yogis) but he quit as he felt it didn't answer his question, "Why does everyone suffer? What is suffering? And how to stop it?" And finally he got his answer and told everyone about The Four Noble Truths (The Truth of Suffering, The Truth of the Cause of Suffering, The Truth of the End of Suffering and The Truth of the Path leading to the End of Suffering). What is the truth of the Path leading to Suffering? The Buddha taught about the eightfold path which are Right Understanding, Right Intent, Right Speech, Right Action, Right Livelihood, Right Effort, Right Mindfulness, and Right Concentration/Meditation.We can see that right meditation and right mindfulness are just only two factors of The Truth of the Path leading to the End of Suffering.

I'm sorry if this post sounds a bit religious. The point is that, even we already meditate the right way, we still need something more to shape our spiritual practice as a whole. In thinking, we still need right understanding, right intend; in speaking, we need right speed; in acting, we need right action, right livelihood and right effort. A behaviorist tells us that we are what we do (eat etc.). And environment does affect us.     

   

[mojomojo]

Hi Donq,
but is such perfection, not so far removed from humanity, as to be quite impossible, a task too far, an impossible dream played in front of our eyes, that which no -one has reached.
In a previous post, you stated that you know the Buddha existed, because you put his teachings into practice, and for you they worked, how so, how have they worked for you.
Is it not enough that we battle with the negativity of the physical realm, only to be met with more of the same, although at a higher level on the spiritual.
Does discernment run that deep, that we must examine every slither of what ever is presented, and who would orchestrate such a game, knowing full well humanities weakness would return him, time and time again to the starting point.
I fear those in control, no longer fear, their blatancy obvious, confidence beyond confidence and our tiny slither of hope, to do the good you can, in your life.
God help us all.

[donq]

Hi Robert,

You asked, "In a previous post, you stated that you know the Buddha existed, because you put his teachings into practice, and for you they worked, how so, how have they worked for you."

Though I'll try to avoid getting into a religious stuff, but I have to mention some words, sorry. The Buddha's teaching that worked for me are mindfulness and "ignorance" (Avidyā ) checking which is vidya ("to know, to perceive, to see, to understand"). Hence, Avidyā means "not know, not perceive, not see, not understand" or (Buddhist) ignorance. 
 
Because of Avidyā or ignorance, we always (if use your word) "slither" into the wrong viewing (understanding). But in the final analysis, it's all about us, about ourselves, not someone or something outside. There's a term about this which is called "dependent origination". But let me put it this way instead, "because of this, then that" etc. Because of ignorance, then we suffer.

Let me give a simple example, I said "Hi" to my friend but she didn't say anything in return. Then, I felt so terrible. What did I do that make she getting mad at me? Did she hate me? Because of my ignorance (not know), I felt more and more terrible. If only I could check it (using some spiritual tool like mindfulness), I would know that it was just my ignorance (my misunderstanding etc.). She might not really see or hear me because she was thinking seriously about something else (my father was ill etc.). Or even she intentionally ignored me, that still had nothing to do with my bad feeling that happened. My own thought was the very reason that made me suffer, whether it interpreted the situation right or wrong, not her. If I knew that I could not control her feeling toward me, but at least, I could manage about my own feeling, this is called "vidyā" or "to know".

P.S. I agree with you about  those in control. After religions have become institutions, they only control. Anyone who doesn't accept their control will be cast aside and become an outsider. And I have been an outsider of Buddhist  institutions for a very long time now. :-)       

[mojomojo]

Hi Donq,
yes, I understand where you are coming from, removing all the old mind patterns, which do not serve us and finding our own mind is indeed liberating and empowering and yes, it does serve us well in everyday life.
But I do feel to go beyond that, to go beyond the mind is where problems can occur, maybe we are not meant to go beyond the mind, as Lorraine once said, the veils between realms are there for a reason.

I believe those in power stretch across the whole spectrum, and all shelter under its umbrella, not only religion, but governments, the justice system and big business, the dots connect too well for there not to be some truth there.

The latest scandal in my country, is a plot of land behind an establishment of the catholic church, run by nuns.
This plot of land has been found to be a burial place for children, new born, and up to three years of age, some were just thrown in the septic tank.
Not so long ago it brought great shame on a family if a daughter became pregnant outside marriage, and to save face they were often sent to these places, where the child once born, was put up for adoption, or possible sold.
As if this was not bad enough, it is now been uncovered, that these infants were used for drug trials by pharmaceutical, companies, which led to the deaths of so many.
The number of children ran to 472, the bodies of 18 young mothers were found, all this happened over a 19 year period.

Nothing happens by chance, we are, where we are by orchestration.

[sparklekaz]

Hi Monty and Robert,

One of the reasons I am drawn to Buddhism Monty, (and you've explained its fundamental precepts very well) is because to me, it is one of, if not the only, religion/spiritual belief, that doesn't try to control our thoughts and beliefs. It offers a view point,yes, a philosophy of living, yes.; A perspective, yes. But the onus, or choice is always left to the person to decide what is right for them. It provides tools, but how we use those tools, is up to the individual to decide, or not as the case may be. So it is sad for me to hear that even Buddhism can be viewed as an institution.

When reading your words Robert I can relate to much of what you have said. And from your words, please forgive me if I'm wrong, I have surmised that one of the biggest worries for you, is the fear that you are being influenced, manipulated, or being controlled, without your knowledge. You come over as a very strong minded person, who would not in normal daily life allow that to happen. Nor would you not notice if someone tried to do it. There is this feeling that I am getting from you that your perception now is, that spirit or spirit world, is a trickster. The Native American people have this belief about the Coyote spirit. I've always had the impression from you that you are very drawn to and have a gift for Shamanism. A spirit walker. I think if you were able to work alongside someone who was very experienced in this branch of spirituality, it would benefit you a lot. Not sure how you feel about that

I've always had a fear of being manipulated by spirit. I put it down to my early Catholic upbringing. Where spirit work is frowned upon, and the danger of possession is something that is talked about often in connection to spiritualism. Which I'm guessing you already know that. And even though I like to think that when done properly, this risk is overstated; However, It does create a block within me that prevents me from exploring further any Mediumistic abilities I've manifested. I consciously keep my connection to spirit channeled through the medium of healing and working with dreams. Having said that, I am not immune to negative attacks. But on the whole, I have to say, I struggle more with my own personal demons, then I do any demonic or lower spirit entities. I am always trying to practice discernment. The test for me, has always been trying to find a good balance between being open, and allowing things to flow naturally, to maintaining a healthy skepticism.

Monty, I liked what you said about suffering, and the cause of it. I liked the example you used, as I've done that many times. I have noticed that what we project outwards, or try to discern what causes suffering, it is always connected to our mindset in that moment. If I am feeling vulnerable and not loving or liking myself much. I am quick to assume, that is how others feel about me too. The same with being afraid of something. Like Robert and his fear of being controlled and manipulated. That is a fear of mine also, of losing control. So I try to ask myself, is this fear real as in a real threat, or is it a threat I perceive, because this is what I fear most? Sometimes, it is really hard to tell the difference.

Love and light
Kaz

[donq]

Hi Robert,

True. In fact, it happens everywhere in the world, doesn't it?

As for  my country, some famous monks have a lot of money in their bank accounts, some even own very expensive Mercedes-Benz! lol
The question is, we, as individual, could do anything about it?
Around 2,500 years ago, Confucius who was considered to be one of the wisest men in the world, could not do anything about it either. When he was 68, he resigned his office job and went into seclusion. So did many great spiritual persons. Why didn't those wise and great men do something to help the world?
The blunt answer was they could not, even some already tried. Let me quote you this story (from Chuang Tzu's book).

Yan Hui, ‘‘I have heard that the Prince of Wei is young and arrogant. He thinks lightly of his state affairs and is blind to his own fault. He thinks lightly of the life and death of the people so that the people are lying dead everywhere like thick grass in the swamps. There is no way out for the people. I've heard you say: 'Leave the state in good order and go to the state in disorder. The doctor is mostly visited by patients.' I'd like to put your teaching into practice and I may do something good to Wei."

"Ah," said Confucius, "you will probably go and get yourself executed, that's all. The Way (Tao) doesn't want things mixed in with it. When it becomes a mixture, it becomes many ways; with many ways, there is a lot of bustle; and where there is a lot of bustle, there is trouble - trouble that has no remedy! The Perfect Man of ancient times made sure that he had it in himself before he tried to give it to others. When you're not even sure what you've got in yourself, how do you have time to bother about what some tyrant is doing?

"Do you know what it is that destroys virtue, and where wisdom comes from? Virtue is destroyed by fame, and wisdom comes out of wrangling. Fame is something to beat people down with, and wisdom is a device for wrangling. Both are evil weapons - not the sort of thing to bring you success. Though your virtue may be great and your good faith unassailable, if you do not understand men's spirits, though your fame may be wide and you do not strive with others, if you do not understand men's minds, but instead appear before a tyrant and force him to listen to sermons on benevolence and righteousness, measures and standards - this is simply using other men's bad points to parade your own excellence. You will be called a plaguer of others. He who plagues others will be plagued in turn. You will probably be plagued by this man.

"And suppose he is the kind who actually delights in worthy men and hates the unworthy-then why does he need you to try to make him any different? You had best keep your advice to yourself! Kings and dukes always lord it over others and fight to win the argument. You will find your eyes growing dazed, your color changing, your mouth working to invent excuses, your attitude becoming more and more humble, until in your mind you end by supporting him. This is to pile fire on fire, to add water to water, and is called `increasing the excessive.' If you give in at the beginning, there is no place to stop. Since your fervent advice is almost certain not to be believed, you are bound to die if you come into the presence of a tyrant."

I was thinking about this story: what will happen if a spiritual man walks into a bar and start preaching?
The answer is he might get drunk (because the smell of booze) or somebody might have to call 911. The point is that is definitely not the place for him to go.     

P.S. Also the above has been said, I myself, as a spiritual person, also joined a political campaign once (because of our corrupt prime minister), only to fine that my effort was in vain. Worse than that, I found later that those who fought that corruption also were corrupt persons. It was sad, wasn't it?    


Hi Karen,

I know that you are a good Christian, my friend, but you also are one of the Buddhists I've ever known.

After the Buddha tried many meditations and didn't find his answer, he quit them all and trying to find the answer by himself. Then (the story was told), he recalled about the time when he was a young boy sitting under the tree. He remembered about the feeling of getting those natural bliss and calm state of mind. I believe that, this natural bliss and calm state of mind is the same in any religion.

About being afraid of something, it reminds me of the monkey in  Journey to the West (Chinese novel published in the 16th century). The novel is an extended account of the legendary pilgrimage of the Tang dynasty Buddhist monk Xuanzang who traveled to the "Western Regions", that is, Central Asia and India, to obtain Buddhist sacred texts and returned after many trials and much suffering. And it's a also metaphorical story. The monk is a metaphor of any spiritual person, who could get enlightenment (complete his journey) if only he got help from his three sidekicks: The Monkey, the Pig and the Hermit. The monkey is the wisest and the most powerful one which is the metaphor of our wisdom. The pig doesn't like to do anything, neither moving his boy, except sleeping (metaphor of meditation). The hermit is a vegetarian and walks nervously as he's afraid to step on even an ant. (metaphor of "religious precept"). Though wisdom is powerful, it also always looks for trouble and brings trouble (like a monkey that cannot stand still even moment. ). Precept might be good but it always makes us too nervous to do something we should (is it against the rules, to do?). Though meditation is good, but we always addict to it until don't want to do anything else. So, a good Buddhist needs all: precept, meditation and wisdom, not just one of them.          

    

[mojomojo]

Hello Kaz,
my fear is not only for myself, but for all who take to a spiritual path.
We are been manipulated from our time of birth, and its this very manipulation that we try to strip off by doing our own inner work, but manipulation does not end with man on the physical, it is present in the spiritual also.
I can only state the level of subtlety that some energies work at,their entry may not be so obvious, but their presence will, as they need to feed off negative energy, and the taps are turned on by feeding your mind with every negative experience or thought you have lived.
I have only of late learned that my wife has experienced this as far back as she can remember and a native American Indian with his face painted white keeps trying to approach her, but she finds it too much and blocks it out.
Trickster, what a very apt word, yes, I do believe, part of the spirit world does not have our best interests at heart, and works solely to keep us in a state of fear, others may state we are only dealing with our own demons, I completely disagree.

My experiences have shown without a shadow of a doubt, that spirit entities and presences are all around us on the earth plane, some only too happy to try to
gain entry.
Shamanism, is something that seems to constantly follow, but I remain cautious, I sense the dangers there, fear must be eradicated completely, there are two centers for shamanism here in Ireland,but Iàm not sure if Iàm strong enough for such endeavors, but it might cause all the pieces to fall in place.

[donq]

Hi again Robert,

I was going to bed but came to check here and found your post.
You said, "I can only state the level of subtlety that some energies work at, their entry may not be so obvious, but their presence will, as they need to feed off negative energy, and the taps are turned on by feeding your mind with every negative experience or thought you have lived."
I've got what you really meant. And it might seem as if I don't believe in this kind of negative energy but on the contrary, I do. For example, once I was alone in the hut (in the forest), I heard someone (or something) shouted right behind my ear, "Go away!" Sure, I was spooked because there was not one there.
I also had experiences about dealing with someone who had...for the sake of speaking, black magic? Yes, they could influence influence some bad things to someone. Anyway, after many years of trying to deal with them (I even tried to study some white magic or positive energies), I found with my surprise that those who possessed this kind of black magic were not the persons I expected. It turned out that (from my experience) the spiritual persons themselves possessed it, not some evil men. They had it just because they had some wrong views on the right spirituality. Somehow the negative energy gather in them. Sometimes it could harm others even they didn't mean to.
Anyway, how to deal with them? Or how to do with any negative energies? The answer is the way your wife dealt with it, blocking it out. The more you deal with it, the more it will have influence on you. See the paradox? In this aspect, that's why those who don't believe in this kind of thing will never fear about it.
Okay, it's time for me to say goodnight.    

P.S. Please say hi to your wife for me. Hope she's fine.

[mojomojo]

Hello multidimensional,
Thank you for your post.
From my point of view we must be very careful, what we accept as our truth, many people , will read something, and with no experience or anything to back it up, make it part of their truth.
People do this all the time, take for example reincarnation, people love the idea of reincarnation so accept it as their truth, removes the fear of death, . Then they will modify it to suit themselves,they do not like the idea of coming back as a worm, so now if you reach the level of human, you can only come back as such.
But there seems to be one big problem, no one seems to ever have any recollection of been alive before, and putting someone in a hypnotic state is not proof of anything, people believe they are leprechauns after been hypnotized.

To me, enlightenment is not something that is reached, a final destination, or some spot of total bliss.
To enlighten someone is to give them knowledge, enlightenment is the acquiring of wisdom, which is never ending, I use the word wisdom, because it comes from learning and self experience.

I agree with you, healthy mind, healthy body and each feeds the other, but have to differ on your term," stagnation on the spiritual path",, even those who do not entertain spirituality are learning, they are on a spiritual path, whether they realize it or not.
Most people who consciously, take up a spiritual path, at the early stages will do their own inner work.
This is nothing more than removing the beliefs of others, which have been crammed into our heads, from an early age, to do this successfully is very empowering, we have probably for the first time, found our own mind, but then if not careful, some then move on to take on the beliefs of others from a spiritual perspective.
The human mind is highly programmable, and we learn many tactics of manipulation along the way, and use them everyday, most likely unknown to ourselves. In school we learn by repetition, which bypasses the conscious mind and becomes lodged in the subconscious, the subconscious does not question, it accepts as truth, which is why you do not have to think when asked what is 4 x 6. Repetition is a way of by passing the conscious mind, look at Times Square or any major city square, neon flashing lights, constant repetition. Subliminal messaging was used in cinemas, a quick flashing message, barely caught by the eye, to get people to buy more junk from the cinema shop, sales soared.
It is present at every level, are you aware people well trained in the art, can bring about a mild sense of hypnosis by varying speech patterns and tone, what a tool for the salesman.
Another tactic that is used in arguments, you will see it all the time on t.v. in political discussions, is to go to extremes to try to discredit the opponent and make him look foolish, " trying to control everyone like mindless robots", might fall under that category.
Another tactic is to move in small increments, so as not to be noticed, looking back to the sixties, a working man could support his wife, family and home with one wage, in this day and age in a working class family, both parents have to work and they struggle, many will never own their own home, it is blatantly apparent, as time moves on things become worse.
Do you think it all happens by chance?

[sparklekaz]

Hi Robert,

Multi said "People can be influenced and are being influenced by social media in positive and negative ways. Things aren't as black and white as the news would have us believe. There is different perspectives however.. more than two sides of one coin indeed... there is space inside coin as well. does it look the same? perhaps not if we would zoom in to get a closer look..." which corresponds with what you also have expressed, when you said "The human mind is highly programmable, and we learn many tactics of manipulation along the way, and use them everyday, most likely unknown to ourselves. In school we learn by repetition, which bypasses the conscious mind and becomes lodged in the subconscious, the subconscious does not question, it accepts as truth, which is why you do not have to think when asked what is 4 x 6. Repetition is a way of by passing the conscious mind, look at Times Square or any major city square, neon flashing lights, constant repetition. Subliminal messaging was used in cinemas, a quick flashing message, barely caught by the eye, to get people to buy more junk from the cinema shop, sales soared. It is present at every level, are you aware people well trained in the art, can bring about a mild sense of hypnosis by varying speech patterns and tone, what a tool for the salesman."

It is clear that you understand the power of suggestion and the many forms in which it is used. My thoughts on this are, if we understand the process; that once we understand it, it becomes so obvious. Does it then still have the same power to influence or manipulate? As Multi said, things are not just Black and White. We are fed so much falsehood, or a manipulated version of a situation or events. What I see in spirituality, is that perspective and informed intelligence, of which the onus is upon us to develop, is how we practice discernment. How we see through the many veils of illusion, to find the kernal of spiritual truths buried within. It is said, that truth is often hidden in plain sight. So obvious, that we just don't see it. But, isn't that always how esoteric truth presents itself. So if we remove what we have learned is wrong, or distorted, the odds are, eventually we will get to the heart of something and find what is buried underneath. And just as I think it is dangerous to believe everything we are told, I do believe, it is just as bad to believe nothing. Where does that take us?

You said "Most people who consciously, take up a spiritual path, at the early stages will do their own inner work. This is nothing more than removing the beliefs of others, which have been crammed into our heads, from an early age, to do this successfully is very empowering, we have probably for the first time, found our own mind, but then if not careful, some then move on to take on the beliefs of others from a spiritual perspective." Nature loves a vacuum doesn't it. But honestly, I think we should give people a bit more credit. Yes, they may embrace the beliefs and thoughts of other people. But how long does it take before their own intuitive discernment kicks in and makes them question, what they seem to have blindly embraced. Not long, if they continue with their own inner work. Its happened to me.

I think the danger you speak of, only happens when people stop actively participating in their own development. And that is their choice. All we can do is focus on our own growth. That is our responsibility. You, me, we are not responsible for others. That is something I've struggled with a lot. As Monty said in his post. We can come over as dictatorial or preachy, when we try to instill our beliefs and thoughts upon others. All I can say to you is, try not to become rigid in your thinking. Where you are at now, is normal and healthy, but to dismiss everything as being part of some conspiracy puts you in danger of losing your perspective. Read up about the Dark Night Of The Soul. And there are many accounts of holy men being under psychic/spirit attack. So again, the negative experiences you and your wife have had, are not unique. It does not mean you are on the wrong path, quite the opposite I'd say.

Love and light
Kaz

[mojomojo]

Hello Kaz,
If we know and understand what a hypnotist does, does that mean we can not be hypnotized?
I would say yes, and no, depends on the the skill level of one and the susceptibility of the other.

"We are fed so much falsehood, or a manipulated version of a situation or events
Why are we fed falsehoods or manipulated versions and by who?

"How we see through the many veils of illusion, to find the kernal of spiritual truths buried within."
What if there is nothing but veils to keep you occupied and nothing within?

I agree with you one hundred per cent, doing our own inner work is probably the most important thing we can do , but I would not even consider it spiritual, self development maybe, removing the beliefs of others, does not mean we believe in nothing, but leaves us to form our own beliefs based on our own experiences.
The world is full of religious people, quite happy to kill one another, personally I would not like to be waiting for their own intuitive discernment to kick in.
To be honest, how many people in the world, do you believe are interested in self development.
I believe you are right, we are not responsible for others and I`am most certainly not trying to instill my beliefs and thoughts on anyone, at times I do not want them for myself, but maybe I have given the wrong impression, Iàm not under psychic/ spiritual attack, I have had a few small experiences with entities, which have been dealt with. I can sense negative energy/spirit, I know its there, but Iam not under attack by it.
You mentioned the dark night of the soul, which we all know can be spiritual attack, do you think there could be a connection between the manipulation of mankind and negative spirituality, this is what I referred to as lock down, it does not mean I think all is negative, the sheer nature of the world been duality, seems to suggest where there is negativity there must be positivity, the only problem been, no-one has ever seemed to reach it, so have we been sold a crock.
Is discernment such a key that to attempt anything spiritual with the slightest hint of ego, or fear enough to lead us astray, because trust me there are negative spiritual forces, they have been documented all down through history, right back to the earliest traditions, shamanism.
Its a fascinating discussion though, is`nt it.

[sparklekaz]

Hi Robert and Multi,

You've raised an interesting question about the hypnosis, Robert. I've never experienced it for myself as such, but I've read quite a bit about it in the past. Years ago, I was looking into it for my Mum, who wanted to stop smoking. She suffered from COPD (chronic obstructive pulminory disease). From what I can gather, all hypnosis does is put someone into a deeply relaxed state, in which they then become more receptive to suggestion. At no time is an individual not in control. And could not be forced to do something that goes against their will, or that does not agree with their own moral compass.

If you've ever watched Paul Mckenna the hypnotist, he uses negative imagery associated to the thing that a person is addicted to, so that when they think of their addiction, they immediately get the suggested negative mental image and associated feelings of repulsion. How effective this is, I'm guessing is dependent on a couple of factors. One, how much does that person want to stop or give up their habit. And two, how open they are to suggestion. I've read that those who fear loss of control are very resistant to hypnosis. So that's you and me then

The nearest I've come to any form of hypnosis if you can call it that. Is as part of cognitive therapy, my therapist tried to use a relaxation technique that involved counting and going down some stairs in my mind. As I started to do it, the thought crossed my mind that this was a form of hypnosis, and immediately the shutters went up in my mind and I stopped. I told her I didn't like it and wouldn't continue. Instinctively, I felt that it was wrong for me to do it. Now this could have been just fear, or that my own self defense mechanism kicked in. So what I'm trying to say is, I am skeptical about the power of hypnosis achieving anything without full co operation. And that human beings will immediately resist anything that does not feel right. Even if they don't understand why, because of this basic instinct that comes from our unconscious mind that will reject any form of manipulation even if its subtle.

In answer to your question, about how many people are really interested in self development is, I don't know. Quite a lot of people do like to continue educating themselves. And I think emotional intelligence is connected to that. If someone is continuing to develop their emotional intelligence, then I think for those people who are innately spiritual, spiritual development is part of that. Because for me they are all interlinked.

Hi Multi,

In your post you describe 'the dark night of the soul' as a form of spiritual attack. For me it is a spiritual crisis. Some describe it as a desolation of spirit. A loss of faith. I don't know if you are into Eckhart Tolle, but he describes it quite well in his writings. Below is an example of what he says from a article he wrote.

The “dark night of the soul” is a term that goes back a long time. Yes, I have also experienced it. It is a term used to describe what one could call a collapse of a perceived meaning in life…an eruption into your life of a deep sense of meaninglessness. The inner state in some cases is very close to what is conventionally called depression. Nothing makes sense anymore, there’s no purpose to anything. Sometimes it’s triggered by some external event, some disaster perhaps, on an external level. Or you had built up your life, and given it meaning – and the meaning that you had given your life, your activities, your achievements, where you are going, what is considered important, and the meaning that you had given your life for some reason collapses.

It can happen if something happens that you can’t explain away anymore, some disaster which seems to invalidate the meaning that your life had before. Really what has collapsed then is the whole conceptual framework for your life, the meaning that your mind had given it. So that results in a dark place. But people have gone into that, and then there is the possibility that you emerge out of that into a transformed state of consciousness. Life has meaning again, but it’s no longer a conceptual meaning that you can necessarily explain. Quite often it’s from there that people awaken out of their conceptual sense of reality, which has collapsed.

They awaken into something deeper, which is no longer based on concepts in your mind. A deeper sense of purpose or connectedness with a greater life that is not dependent on explanations or anything conceptual any longer. It’s a kind of re-birth. The dark night of the soul is a kind of death that you die. What dies is the egoic sense of self. Of course, death is always painful, but nothing real has actually died there – only an illusory identity. Now it is probably the case that some people who’ve gone through this transformation realized that they had to go through that, in order to bring about a spiritual awakening. Often it is part of the awakening process, the death of the old self and the birth of the true self.

I found this to be a very accurate description of how I have felt on at least two occasions over the last 20 years and to a lesser degree, several times also since. I would be very interested to hear, what you, Robert, Monty, Pami and anyone else who reads this, thinks about it.

Love and light
Kaz

[samy03]

Hello Pam,


This is not just about You in particular. Every individual in this nature (no matter a human being/animal/plant) or any other living creature is going through the same phase of ups and downs. It's just that we human beings are the best creation of God, who cannot not see, feel and act on something. But, have a brain to cross question about the mistakes/attachments/time that let us realize sometimes the reaction of excitement / happiness / pain / sorrow etc. etc. etc. Blah blah blah...it keeps on continuing with different words.


We human beings are being told that help the other person. Help the needy. Help the weaker. Nice, really right. Every other person is expecting, expecting and expecting. What is it that they expect. Love & Happiness. So, DO I also. Right?

In reality (which itself is a illusion), what's happening is that One Blind person, asking for the another blind one to help him in crossing the road. So, the other individual who knows that he himself is Blind. But, the person asking for doesn't knows that. So, he will guide him in his/her own experiences that made him understand the meaning of life in his own terms and satisfactions. I want your full and full concentration on this statement. Remember, it will make you or it will break you. Both of them exists in your own self.


If you want to earn money, then be ready to face the life. Money & God are two faces of a same coin. If you choose the path of spirituality, then be ready to know the art of living the life. No one can sail in two different boats at a same time. It is not about sacrifice something, however doing everything without even getting impacted by anything. Not too easy, for a kid at your age. But, still if you had the courage of putting those valuable thoughts, then I am sure you or say everyone will be able to face them also. Every Night ends with a Warm and cheerful sunlight.

Same is with the life. It comes and it goes. We need money because we have a family to run for. That's how this life has showed use since last so many times and still showing use. No one can deny that. Choose what is it that heart wants to be part off...But, than the question comes in mind....I am not getting the money out of it, what is being required. Right???

So, even we Choose Spirituality in the form of feeling calm and peace. Today, the place of God itself becomes the primary area of flooded with expectations, needs and material happiness. So, its a completely Zig-Zag thing that makes the situation pass by and comes out with a different situation that let us again attached to something else.

People choose those paths that makes them feel satisfied. As they are completely exhausted with the trials, trials and trials...seek for happiness and peace. Still, got nothing after sometime. So, its not you but every individual. Even a +90 old person has his or her own way of describing the stress of life and Pain. That's why it's being said : Until and unless you put yourself on the other person shoes, you won't be able to see things the way they looked like in actual. Maturity is that only and nothing more than that. But, neither a kid or a old guy.....they both get attached to something which makes them running through the path of happiness in there own ways. Choose your own path, being doing everything without getting attached to anything.

Learn the art, the sooner the better. Else wise, the cycle goes on and on since ages.


God Bless Everyone!
Sam!!

[mojomojo]

Hello Multi,
you asked me a question, " how do you know no-one has reached enlightenment," and then you mention, Buddha, Krisna, Jesus and Gandhi.Let me answer you by asking you a question. How do you know if any of them ever existed? bar Gandhi.
There is no proof whatsoever that Jesus actually existed, so it has been generally accepted, that he was used as a metaphor and I would imagine it is the same for the rest. Probably a better question would be to ask, Who wrote the bible and why?

"A bunch of conspiracy theories that leads only to blind alley and corruption of the mind."
Conspiracy theory, a belief that some influential organisation is responsible for a circumstance or event, how does that lead to blind alley and corruption of the mind?

"You dònt have to embrace some mystic fear, that you have no control over anything that happens in your life".
I dònt, I`am in complete control of my life. By educating myself on how life works, I avoid the pitfalls

[sparklekaz]

Hi Multi,

I'm sorry if I've confused you. It is not uncommon for me to talk about two different things in one reply. I was responding to a comment Robert made on his reply about hypnosis. And to you I was responding too your comment about the dark night of the soul.

Love and light
Kaz

[mojomojo]

Hello Karen,
I agree with you, regards, no-one under hypnosis would perform something against their moral fiber.
Having said that, and funny you mention Paul McKenna, I attended a show of his when I was a teenager, when the show was over he had people frantically running around looking for leprechauns, this continued on the streets with one fellow scaling to great heights on scaffolding erected outside a building, quite dangerous really.
The cognitive therapy you speak of, how far removed from guided meditation is that.

I started looking into mass manipulation and media manipulation after looking into sociopathology.
Not been able to understand why I could have what I would have called very positive spiritual visions and then have negative spiritual experiences, I began to question everything, to me the two should not be able to mix, plus I always questioned why things happened so easily. When I first started meditating, within three months I had a presence in my flat, things happened far too quick and easy, I was always suspicious of that.

To find that most spiritual practices were basically forms of self hypnosis was gut wrenching, finding they could lead to trance states, with visions and all the rest, well, deflating to say the least.
I would encourage anyone to look and see for themselves.

As regards the dark night of the soul, continued long time spiritual practices can lead to depression,detachment taken to extremes, leaves life meaningless, one can even become detached from their own body, a breaking down of the personality, or ego, the exact same outcome in military, breaking down spies, different methods, same outcome.
The parallels in manipulation and spirituality are too close to ignore, if we could truthfully answer who wrote the codes we are meant to live by, we would have a clearer understanding, those in power or spiritual men.

[mojomojo]

Hello Multi,
just to let you know where Iàm coming from, I have walked a spiritual path since my late twenties, Iàm now fifty four.
For seven years I took time out and concentrated on spirituality totally, spending my days, in prayer, meditation, reiki and study of holy scriptures, I do not claim to have read every book written, but I think I have the right to say, I have read a lot, including all the books you have mentioned.

My main concern with people involved in spirituality, is their ability to take on as truth, something that has been written down, by whom they have no idea, and claim that these practices work, that is not proof that someone existed.
I will stick to my statement that these people never existed, and because some theologian says he did, is again not proof, if people claim that spiritual beings appeared to them with teachings, it is nothing more than hearsay, again not proof.
The basis of your whole belief, is that these teachings were wrote by who you think, and when put into practice they work.
These teachings do not help you to live in this life, and are nothing more than an ideal, where everyone must think the same, never going to happen.

Now lets go back to who wrote these codes of moral living, if it was a spiritual person, who found a way out of suffering, then great, but again we have no proof, we have often heard it called, a task too far, a pie in the sky, not reachable.
If on the other hand it was wrote by those in power at the time, we could honestly say it was to make the people more manageable, less likely to be violent, more law abiding.

Man is a very intelligent being, and it is not beyond the scope of practicalities, that he may have studied the human mind and found ways to pacify, which is exactly what spiritual practices do, prayer, chanting, meditation.
If one goes to a hypnotist show and partakes, the after effects of been hypnotized are extreme calm and a sense of well being, most people consider been hypnotized as been unconscious, not so, mild states of hypnosis can be induced in several ways, repetition, deep concentration, focusing on one point, going deeper into hypnosis can bring us to trance states, where we will see visions, religious or spiritual or whatever the subconscious holds.

But we would rather believe, its bringing us to somewhere spiritual, based on the words written, by whom, we know not.
I truly hope you are right and I, totally wrong, but from a logical viewpoint it does not look that way, but as another spiritual, get out clause, states, you must go beyond the mind, suspend all logic, total surrender, where else in life would you apply that logic.

[sparklekaz]

Hi Multi,

A very well written and thought out reply. From what I see and as you have said, you are not trying to convince anyone to believe in something, just making a intelligently framed response, based on information you have studied and intuited. For which I applaud you.

Robert, you have indeed earned the right to express yourself, having spent years of application to the study and practice of a variety of spiritual practices. As I see it, everything you have said also has merit and makes sense. I can understand why you feel as you do at this time.

In my experience, any extreme view is not healthy. Whether is of a religious nature or so called 'new age' conspiracy theories. There is plenty of information out there that will feed both, if an individual chooses to follow that course of thinking.

Ultimately I believe that the key factor that hasn't been mentioned here is 'faith'. A belief in something more, that cannot be explained or shown to another person; A feeling that comes from deep inside. It is this feeling that is the primary force behind any kind of spiritual seeking. It seems to me that when we are heart and intuitive instinct driven, we naturally find our way. Only when the intellect kicks in to overdrive, do we see this internal conflict.

Everything you have said has merit Robert. I can't argue with your logic. The only thing I will say about what you have said regarding similarities between meditation, self hypnosis and it being used in mind altering way is this. It is all about intention. In simple terms, just as a knife can be used to maim and kill; it can also be used to save lives in the hands of a surgeon, or create works of art in the hands of a craftsman. As multi said there is duality in everything. How something is used is a tool, always in the hands of the person who wields it; Their character, heart and integrity.

You say that you spent seven years devoted to spiritual pursuits Robert (interesting how these things always come in sevens). You were fortunate, not many have the opportunity to do that. To spend so much of your time doing that, it must have been very important and meaningful to you. From what you have shared here with us, your passion and enthusiasm was infectious and inspirational. In that time, you seem to have accomplished a lot. You developed as a healer - attended many workshops - and shared with people from all walks of life who had similar interests to you. If you put to one side for a moment, your thoughts, and what you have learned and concerns about how meditation and self hypnosis as being similar to techniques used in more nefarious ways; would you say that you benefited from this period of time in your life? Were you happy and enjoying it?

My view is that spirituality is not supposed to numb us to the problems and inequalities of this world, but to provide us with the psychological, emotional and spiritual tools to help us through. Not to remove us from the world but to allow us to walk through it with some kind of inner support system in place. I can see that trying to live a spiritual life does not enclose us in some protective bubble, where nothing touches us. Or by try to learn how to transcend suffering, are we detaching ourselves so much from loving and caring that we just don't care. Quite the opposite seems to be the case. We probably feel things even more deeply.

I'm still trying to understand the meaning of this. And at times still suffer greatly. But I have to say, if it were not for the understanding of myself and life I have gleaned from my studies of Buddhism and insight gained through using this information within my personal relationships, I truly do not think I could have coped. When I felt lost, it sustained me. It is my light in the darkness, my anchor in stormy seas. I have had and still get similar doubts - have struggled with the duality. But in my heart, not my head, I know that my spiritual life is as important to my well being as eating and breathing. Each of us has a responsibility to follow our own way. To work through the doubts and fears we have. But, secure in the knowledge also, that we are here for each other, should we need it along the way.

Love and light
Kaz

[mojomojo]

Hello Karen,
very good post, and thank you for your kind words.
Yes, extreme views are never the way, or so it seems, but many people in spirituality seem to only want to entertain the positive, how can a logical decision be made looking at one side only, I feel like Iàm ranting on a bit now, so this discussion is probably near its end.
But blind faith, Kaz, something Iàm very weary of.
I would however agree with you about intuition, but again I would be very careful, having had the experience of entities, I know from experience, thoughts that are not our own can be planted in our mind, I disagree with others who claim you will think they are your own thoughts, I found it obvious they were not, and if thoughts can be planted, can emotions be that much harder.
I remember Ace once saying the ego can up the ante as you get closer into alignment with your higher self, boy, was he right, not sure its only the ego though, if I thought my ego could be that clever, that is what I would be looking for. LOL.

You have become very intuitive Karen and I sense much more relaxed with yourself, if you do not mind me saying, the number seven, Yes everything in my life has come in sevens, and it has always been my lucky number, maybe its the same for everyone.

To answer your question , spirituality led me to find myself, which I did, I removed all the trappings and was left solely with the real me, there is great comfort in that alone, people around you will sense that, and you will see them cock their heads and internally ask themselves, what has he got.
I may sound boastful now, but I do believe, I came very close to been in alignment with my higher self, I could sense him laugh, and the laughter would run through my very core.
But having said all that, I did a crash course, full on, I was going to see it through and find for once and all if any truth lay in it, I do not believe I could have done it, mixing with everyday life, and still feel it can not be done.

But it has been a great discussion, thank you all, who took part, I would just like to add, I have not made any decisions, Iàm not sold on any conspiracy theory, this is me thinking out loud and using you guys as a sounding board.
To Donq, my wife says hello and hopes you are keeping well.
Thank you all.

[mojomojo]

Hello again Multi,
The books referred to in your post where the Buddha texts, also called the Sutras, The Bhagavad Gita, The Bible, the Old Testament, The New Testament, these are all books, you even suggested they may be found on amazon.

It does not matter if the Bible was wrote by one person or many, but only if they were of a spiritual nature or over seen by those in power, and for what purpose they were wrote.

If you choose to believe something that has no logical basis, other than you choose to believe, that is up to you, but all spirituality calls for complete surrender, and giving up the egoic mind, your logical mind is the only defense you have.

Spiritual practices are designed to make people calm and peaceful and over time strip away the ego, this does not help one in these modern times, which are aggressive to say the least, been passive in an aggressive environment is not a bonus.

If spiritual practices are forms of hypnosis, which can lead to trance states and produce illusions, and the moral codes we have read, by whom we know not, are there intentionally to make us more manageable, then the whole house of cards collaspes, its nothing more than mind games.

[donq]

Hi Robert,

Please say thanks you to your wife (Betrice, right?). Does she ever reconsider to come back to post here again?

I'd like to sum up all I read (and might be misread) about your thoughts on this thread.

1. No one can know for sure if there were really the Buddha, Jesus et al.

-Let's say that it's true, the point still is, it's better to have a map than none. To wander the unknown forest alone without a map might take a life time, and never find the way out.

2. How do I personally believe the Buddha was real? (my personally answer was "from my tried and tastes his teachings".)

-I have wandered that unknown forest with my map, Buddha's teachings et al. I found the marks here and there, as he (the Buddha) said, all along the ways. Sometimes I wandered off but the map helped me to back on the right track again and again. It gave me more and more confidences that he (the Buddha) really walked this path before otherwise how he could write the very exact map like this.

4. Is it possible that those in power just want to control people by using this powerful tool (religions)?

-Maybe it's true. But only after religions have become institutions. Before that, (I was going to say the Buddha, that he didn't want his teachings to become religions because monks had to be only in the forests), say, Mother Theresa or Gandhi, they offered some great things (helping) to their people, didn't they? How would the world be if we didn't have those great religious men?
Another obvious example here is, say, what you thought on this thread was so true and there were so many people become your disciples, and later become the religion. See? You meant well, to correct the right views of people. And it was not your fault about your religion. It just happened. Then, after, say a next hundreds or a thousand year, a new Robert came and asked the same question again. Hence a new religion.

5. There's a saying, "if you meet Buddha on the road, kill him" In fact, it's the title of popular book)"

-Though it's true that "the map is not the territory" but that comes after. I mean, at first, we need a map when we start. But after we are so familiar with that map and the territory, we might not need the map any more. Worse than that, sometimes the map itself is the problem. Because it's not the territory, the reality. Reality might change a bit when the time changes. Then, and only then, "if you meet Buddha on the road, kill him" but not before that.

6. Some entity, thoughts that are not our own can be planted in our mind.

Honestly, I still don't know what you really meant. On the worldly level, yes, it's true. Propaganda! That's why soldiers go to war, people love their countries, and salesmen can sell etc. Without it, who would fight with Hitler? No one wanted to go to war, right? Sure, Hitler himself also used his great Propaganda which he misread about Nietzsche's the overman (Übermensch) and killed millions of innocents people.
On the religious level, okay, it's also true. But I've already explained it above. Map versus no map. Before and after becoming institutions.Without these implants (propaganda or manipulation), the world might be in chaos. I didn't say it's a good thing. I will only say it's necessary. The world will become hell without it.
Psychology also studies about the right brain, split brain, the unconscious mind or Dissociative Identity Disorder (Double or Multiple Personality Disorder). Someone seem to have two (or more) minds within themselves. Schizophrenia hears the voice in themselves which are not them etc.
One the spiritual practice, it's also normal. Mindfulness practice tries to deal with an unintentional thoughts or the thought that arises without knowing (awareness). Hence mindfulness.
As for literally entity (negative energies), let me skip here as it's a long story.

So, in the final (and deepest) analysis, maybe it's true and religions also some kind of manipulations (propaganda), but only in the eyes of only those who don't need a map any more. And they could not say that the world doesn't need a map because there's a map is better than there's no map. So many people still need it.

As a friend, I feel that I have to think out loud here for our honest friendships.

P.S. I'm going to drive my mother (and her dogs) to have a vacation on the beach. Be back soon.

[mojomojo]

My dear friend Donq,
I have always held you in great respect, and will never have a problem with you expressing your thoughts, even if our thoughts differ, the respect will remain.
Point 1, you assume the map leads to a way out, but yet no-one seems to have made it.
Point 2, a well thought out plan, tried and tested will give the same results, yet still does`nt provide a way out.
Point 4, not only religion can be used to manipulate but spirituality as well, Steve Jobs co-founder of Apple did more for humanity than Mother Teresa and Gandhi combined, and never promoted himself.
Point 5, if the map does not suit the territory then of what value is the map, if the by product of spiritual practices lessens our ability to function in daily life, then who does it serve? We live here, now, this reality, not some ideal world in our heads.
Point 6, Entities, that I speak of are of the spiritual, they can attach to people and influence your thoughts, they are very real, and well documented and feed off negative energy, My experience of them, was my mind been bombarded with every negative experience and thought, non stop for four days, to the extent it became extremely tiring and questioning ones sanity.
I guess if you have not experienced it, why would you believe it.
It is only my opinion, but I would believe it is more so, down to Law and punishment, that prevents everything going to hell.
I do understand your point, Donq, but it boils back to the same question, is the map created for the ideal good of all or the underhanded work of the few.
We could look at it from the Christian spiritual perspective, that which we battle with, comes not only in the form of flesh and blood etc, and that would explain everything, but do we want to think that.