mojomojo
Go deep enough, and there is a bedrock of truth, however hard.
Posts: 694
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Post by mojomojo on Mar 21, 2017 11:31:20 GMT
For seven years I lived in London, a sort of semi -reclusive life, why I picked one of the busiest cities, I dònt know, it just happened that way. Four hours a day were spent with spiritual practices, and working from home, contact with people was minimal, except for my wife who broke the silence when returning from work. I was very centered, completely at peace and according to others, exuded calm, I was not always this way, in my early years quite aggressive in fact. After the seven years we returned to our country of origin, Ireland, ever notice life changes, always come in sevens. The Irish people by their very nature are a bit more aggressive than most, the term,"the fighting Irish" is not a myth, I'm allowed say this, I`am Irish.
Back in Dublin I was no longer hiding away, but back mixing with the masses, one evening at an auction, because I did not get out of someone`s way quick enough, I was the recipient of a load of verbal abuse, with physical threatening. I stood like a rabbit caught in the light, not knowing what to do, looking at this person with utter confusion at his outburst.
My years of spiritual practice had left me with my ego stripped away, passive, with any hint of anger or violence removed. I mulled over this incident for days, and as usual started asking questions and looking for answers.
I looked at manipulation tactics of the military, media and people in general, what I found left me very angry. The very same practices used by the military to break prisoners down are reflected in spiritual practices. Break a person, mentally, down to nothing and then reprogram, though the methods may be different, the required result is the same, strip away the ego and what are you left with, a shell of a person, ready to take in what is offered, I always remembered a travel program where a Buddhist monastery was visited, the travelers only comment about the monks, was that, " it was like they were not there, like shells of people".
When people hear of hypnosis, they may think of someone becoming unconscious, then accepting commands and following through, not necessarily, a mild form of hypnosis can be induced, very easily without one even been aware. The purpose of hypnosis is to bypass the logical mind and plant suggestions in the subconscious, which just excepts everything as truth. Self hypnosis gives one a sense of calm , well being and get this, oneness. Methods of self hypnosis, constantly repeating the same thing over and over, prayer, mantra`s, singing, in groups is said to be more powerful, that feeling of oneness, at a large concert, where everyone sings together. Pure concentration is a form of self hypnosis, how many times have you driven on a long journey, but can not remember large parts of it. Times when we use pure concentration, living in the now, crystal ball gazing, meditation, as people become more involved in meditation, their self hypnosis will bring them into deeper states of trance, the list goes on and on. Is it inconceivable that man down through the ages, has studied the mind and found ways to control the masses.
You have to ask yourself, who benefits from a passive, non violent people. Which brings us to a brief note before I end, non violence has never, ever worked, people will immediately shout, Martin Luther King, Gandhi, nonsense, their philosophy may have been that of non violence, but both men were surrounded by active violent groups, who were quite ready to resume, if their demands were not met. Tiananmen Square , China, everyone remembers the student standing in front of the tank, halting its progress, non violence in progress, but the memory does not want to remember they were all shot, and killed a short time after. Again the list is endless, Northern Ireland, decades of extreme violence, which led to peace, if no violence had been used, there would have been no change.
But do not take my word, do your own research and decide for yourself.
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sparklekaz
Someone asked me.. What is your religion? I said, "All the paths that lead to the light".
Posts: 3,658
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Post by sparklekaz on Mar 21, 2017 20:43:43 GMT
Hi Robert, You said, "I looked at manipulation tactics of the military, media and people in general, what I found left me very angry. The very same practices used by the military to break prisoners down are reflected in spiritual practices. Break a person, mentally, down to nothing and then reprogram, though the methods may be different, the required result is the same, strip away the ego and what are you left with, a shell of a person, ready to take in what is offered, I always remembered a travel program where a Buddhist monastery was visited, the travelers only comment about the monks, was that, " it was like they were not there, like shells of people".I don't see how you can compare the techniques that the military have used to break down a person mentally, i.e. sleep and sensory deprivation. Physical and mental abuse. To someone choosing to shed their old habits, preconceptions and judgements, as a means to understand and transcend the ego. Meditation is a form of self hypnosis, so are you saying that meditation is harmful? From what I have read and experienced myself, meditation is a wonderful way to relax, and has other knock on helpful physical benefits also, such as lowering blood pressure. I think you have to see, that the one is peaceful and a personal choice, to another that is forced upon someone and is extremely harmful and aggressive. In a military setting, discipline and following orders without question is part of their training. Not so much as to strip away personal identity, but to help form a team of men and women to work together cohesively as an effective unit. In spiritual terms, self understanding and realization is there to help people understand who they really are, what they believe in. To think for themselves. To not be afraid to be unique and individual. To stand up for what they believe in. Quite the opposite really to the ethos of the armed forces. If I really believed developing spiritually, would turn me into an empty, non thinking automaton, I would upset me too. To be honest Robert, I don't think a spiritual life is meant to be about living in a protected bubble, where the outside world cannot intrude. I've always believed its there to give us the tools to help us live a more healthy, whole and balanced life. With a greater understanding of other people and the world, not less. I can hear in your words you felt a kind of culture shock and angry. Funny isn't it how you'd expect Ireland to be more roses round the door friendliness, then the anonymity of the metropolis. Maybe that's the problem, in smaller intimate communities you are thrown together more. Personal boundaries are infringed upon more often then in a big city where people are far more wary and less intrusive. Its all about adjustment. And just because you were unprepared for someone elses aggression, does not make you weak. Just taken by surprise. And only you can decide whether one persons ignorant behaviour is worth losing your temper over. Spiritual practice I think helps us to discern wisely, which battles are worth fighting, and which ones are worth just walking away from. If you'd have retaliated in kind to the aggression you came across, would it have made you feel better? Or would you have come away feeling like you'd let yourself down. We could talk forever about why that guy reacted the way he did to you. What kind of life has he lived to make him so aggressive, but that would take up a whole other post wouldn't it. Or maybe its just who he is. No self control, selfish and gets off on intimidating and hurting others. We've all met those kind of people. A couple of Christmas's ago, it was Christmas eve, and we were in a lovely hotel, all dressed up for a happy evening. When I accidentally blocked a mans view of the entertainment. Smartly dressed, sat with his wife. He snarled at me "move b i t c h". I was shocked too, and apologizing profusely moved out of the way. It upset me, no one has ever spoken like that too me, and it was so out of keeping with where we were. But, it didn't make me think, I should have given him a mouthful back. It just made me glad that I wasn't like him. Don't change who you are. Always be true to yourself. Love and light Kaz
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mojomojo
Go deep enough, and there is a bedrock of truth, however hard.
Posts: 694
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Post by mojomojo on Mar 22, 2017 11:10:06 GMT
Hello Kaz, I was not comparing the methods of the military to that of meditation, as shown by, "though the methods may be different", but merely stating the end result comparison between the two, a human being stripped of its sense of self, and stripping away the ego, there is a similarity. A prisoner of war when broken, has totally surrendered, spirituality asks for total surrender. Yes, one is forced and the other done willingly. You say, spirituality is there to help us think for ourselves, to not be afraid, to be unique and individual, but yet that Christmas eve, you were insulted, you apologized, I`am not having a dig, trust me, but this could also be a result of spiritual practices, maybe not, in my case it certainly was.
Kaz, I have lived in London in total 14 years, Ireland 40 years, coming back to Ireland was not a culture shock, though Dublin is smaller than London, it is still a city, but I have never heard your expression before,"roses round the door, friendliness." LOL, sorry, but thats something the Irish have lost a long time ago.
Spiritual life is not about living in a bubble, I agree, which is why I have stated, spiritual practices do not equip you for this life, you are far better concentrating on what it takes to live successfully in this life. Why people act the way they do, is not someone else`s concern, by becoming a door mat you perpetuate that persons actions, maybe physical reaction, would be the only way to get them to examine their ways.
You asked if I thought meditation is harmful, Iàm of the opinion that everything in life has a good and bad side, and spiritual practices are no different. One aspect of manipulation is to move in very small steps, to move in large steps is too obvious. When starting meditation everything is fine, calm and relaxed and there develops a need to do it more and more, so first two problems are obvious, a slightly addictive nature and escapism. Meditation changes brain activity. increasing in some areas, while decreasing in others, one part where activity is decreased is the part known as the gatekeeper, explains itself, it helps break down the ego, makes one sensitive, passive and compliant, long term meditation leads to illusions, brain fog, a feeling of disconnected, detached. Past life trauma, buried may surface, when people are not ready, illusions may frighten or worse cause people to think they are losing their mind, some claim it has led to psychosis. But let me finish with this, a quote by the Dalai Lama, "In the west, I do not think it is advisable to follow Buddhism. Changing religions is not like changing professions. Excitement lessens over the years, and soon you are not excited, and then where are you? Homeless inside yourself. Taken from, Tibet, Tibet.
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sparklekaz
Someone asked me.. What is your religion? I said, "All the paths that lead to the light".
Posts: 3,658
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Post by sparklekaz on Mar 22, 2017 12:10:02 GMT
Hi Robert, Roses around the door, is probably a very old fashioned Barbara Cartland type of expression An ode to my romantic reading days lol But, I suppose I've always had this idealistic view of Ireland. I've only visited once, when I was seven years old with my Mum and Auntie, to visit family. A very long time ago. You said that there is a stripping away of self. Isn't the point with spirituality, that you strip away 'all that is not self', not the opposite? So that you can identify what is yours and what is the beliefs, opinions and learned behaviour from others? Is not the whole point to give yourself a stronger sense of identity, rather than less? I do see though that there is a danger, that this kind of stripping away could leave a vacuum, just begging to be filled, by whatever spiritual idea or new age belief that comes along. But doesn't it depend on how it is done? We see it all the time, young people and old, infatuated by the whole spiritual ethos, that they embrace certain beliefs and practices, without thought or question. Indeed as I think you've said, its become the latest fad. I've noticed though, unless an individual has approached it from a more thought out and self growth point of view, they will quickly lose interest. For me spiritual growth, and reading different materials by spiritual masters, teachers, guru's etc, has always been a process of sifting and discernment. Yes, I can see how my lack of response to 'angry man' would make me look like a doormat. But honestly, I was so taken aback and shocked by his comment, I was lost for words. It was so unexpected. When I went back to my own seat, and thought about what he said, I did feel angry. It was a total over-reaction on his part. (he was Irish)lol I didn't tell my partner about what he'd said until some time later. Because I knew what his reaction would be. Not like mine and I did not want to make the situation worse, by adding fuel to the fire. I could have told him that he was being extremely rude, (which he already knew) but I'm guessing from his manner, I'd have just received more verbal abuse. And to be honest, I couldn't imagine a more embarressing scenario, then the idea of getting into a shouting match with a aggressive man. Drawing in my partner, who probably would have bopped him one. Horrible. So I walked away. I don't regret doing that. He'd clearly also been drinking (I do not drink), can you reason with a drunk? Years ago, I would have reacted angrily. But over time, I've come to understand myself better, and this has helped me to mentally think through, without instantly reacting emotionally. Like I said in my earlier reply, there are some battles worth fighting and some that are not. I believe, and I can only speak for myself, that spiritual practice can help you to use discernment. You said you used to be very angry. Do you regret learning to control that anger, to be its master rather than its slave Love and light Kaz
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sparklekaz
Someone asked me.. What is your religion? I said, "All the paths that lead to the light".
Posts: 3,658
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Post by sparklekaz on Mar 22, 2017 13:01:28 GMT
Hi Robert,
I agree totally with you when you say "You asked if I thought meditation is harmful, I am of the opinion that everything in life has a good and bad side, and spiritual practices are no different." Anything taken to extreme can in my opinion be harmful. A person's temperament, and intention can play a big part in an individuals reaction to any spiritual practice. But we only discover that as we go along don't we. For some they are quite happy and safe developing on their own. Others, are much better off doing it with guidance; As part of a group or with a mentor. I also believe that people with certain mental health issues should be careful, as some spiritual practices can amplify or aggravate an existing condition.
As you have said in earlier posts, the spiritual path is not all love and light. It is definitely not for the faint hearted. It can reveal weakness mentally, and can play on existing fears. It can bring trauma to the surface. Which can be dangerous, if not done in a safe setting. We could go on and on about the pitfalls, but as we both know, this will not deter people, if its an area they wish to explore. That is why online forums and chats like this one can be helpful, in offering some advice and guidance to those who would not in their daily life have it available to them.
I really liked your quote by the Dalai Lama "In the west, I do not think it is advisable to follow Buddhism. Changing religions is not like changing professions. Excitement lessens over the years, and soon you are not excited, and then where are you? Homeless inside yourself." It makes perfect sense. I know that Buddhism is one of the few spiritual paths who do not advocate someone changing their religion, and have said its not necessary to do so, just because you wish to embrace and follow some of their teachings. For me Buddhism has been helpful as a tool for understanding myself better, and how to cope with the challenges of life. I was raised a Catholic, though do not practice now, as in going to church. But I still feel like one inside and pray as one; but feel no conflict at using Buddhism as a tool towards self understanding. It has also helped me to deal with my own life long struggle with anxiety.
For me its all about personal responsibility. Life is a process of learning, and discernment. I too feel frustrated at times, at the lack of self control, thought and care our fellow human beings exhibit. I myself get angry and frustrated at times. I try not to take it out on others. I don't want to feel that my heightened sense of humanity makes me weak. Its easy to lash out though. Much harder to exert self control and think through consequences. You say that you believe that being spiritual can make you weak, because you don't react the same as everyone else. But as Krishnamurti said "it is no measure of health, to be well adjusted in a sick society".
Love and light Kaz
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mojomojo
Go deep enough, and there is a bedrock of truth, however hard.
Posts: 694
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Post by mojomojo on Mar 22, 2017 19:19:01 GMT
Hello Kaz, you hit the nail on the head, we are led to believe that stripping away the ego reveals our true self. Given that no-one seems to have accomplished this, how do we know. We are the result of our life experiences, we strip away all the programmed rubbish and other peoples beliefs,and are left with someone who can think for their selves,but meditation tells us to ignore our thoughts, living purely in the now, puts us beyond thought. Once you find your own mind, the next step is to go beyond it. Just for one moment, imagine if it was all a scam, put together by the brightest of people, who studied the human mind, and they put together these practices, that caused people to be passive and compliant. What if it is the other way around, that which you strip away is the real self, there are as many arguments for either approach.
In my 14 years in London, I was attacked twice, both times the person was Irish, speaking to two Americans from New York at a workshop once, I was saddened to hear of the reputation the Irish held there, so its no surprise to hear your assailant was Irish.
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