spiritual growth through suffering

[sparklekaz]

Hi Amy,

Welcome to the forum

That is an interesting question you've posed, and one I have to admit I've thought about at length over time. I would agree that painful experiences do seem to have the most potent ability to influence emotional/spiritual growth in people. But, I also know from personal experience and from speaking to and observing other people; That unless someone is ready or has reached a certain level of emotional intelligence, they will fail to see the connection between repeated behaviour patterns, and their negative experiences. So until someone starts to question the reasoning behind their reactions, no matter how many painful the life lessons they experience are, it wont really change anything? I think it's one of these 'Chicken and the egg scenario's'.

I have to say also though, that I don't think it's just negative experiences that help us grow. I do believe, happiness, joy and contentment are also conditions that stimulate growth. The negative experiences tend to drain people of a lot of their ability to think clearly and keep a healthy realistic perspective. Sometimes they need others to help them stay grounded and not let their fear and anxiety overwhelm them. In times of peace, I've noticed people look to developing their other intuitive/spiritual senses. Happy, confident people tend to look to adding to their life skills, such as learning new hobbies and developing new interests. Those who are of a spiritual bent, will use this time to take up activities that help them to enhance their knowledge of the esoteric/spiritual/psychic. Reading books that will help them with their personal growth. Such as counselling, meditation, healing and holistic therapies.

You say in your post, "as awakening and becoming more conscious is linked to and primarily caused by pain and suffering i was deliberating what that would mean in the 'helping others' context. If - no matter how bad it feels for the human individual - suffering is actually a good thing for the soul/spirit, would we not in fact be hindering/delaying other humans in their growth when attempting to ease their suffering (emotional, physical etc.)?" That is something we've discussed quite a bit over time. On here and in our chat room. I ask myself is helping another through sharing informations, anecdotes from personal life experiences, insight gained through those experiences, any different to helping someone out of a tricky normal life situation? Is it any different then say giving advice to a friend who has asked for it if it's regarding a problem at work, or in a relationship or health worry? You know as well as me probably, that no matter someone else tells us, we will ultimately go with what feels right for us. And as others have said, not just my thoughts, people will understand, hear what you are saying from their own level of understanding. If what you say resonates with them then it might give them another perspective. But ultimately, they will still do things in their own way. I don't think we help or hinder, simply point the way.

Just my thoughts on it. I will be very interested to hear what other's think, and more of your thoughts. Thank you for sharing.

Love and light
Kaz

[sparklekaz]

Hi Amy,

I think we all go through those kinds of feelings. Spiritual growth I've found rarely goes in a straight line. It's either up or down lol

Ah, yes Christmas and New Year can be difficult for some. I always think Autumn and Winter is very much about exploring thoughts and feelings. Going within. Trouble is, we can get caught up in over analyzing everything, rather than gaining insight from something and moving on. I do agree with you though, that in helping others, inspiring, encouraging, giving them faith in themselves, is contagious. I really believe what we say to others is also mean't for ourselves. Sometimes I think we just have to hear ourselves saying positive things 'out loud'. Yes, going with the flow can be hard. I don't think that is simply about not being pro-active. Simply staying out of our own way. Being open to syncronicity and inspiration. And there is nothing wrong with taking some 'time out'.

One of the most helpful things I've read over recent years, are the Buddhist beliefs about attachment and expectations. How we rely on 'outside' things, people, to make us feel happy. When true happiness that can't be taken away from us when people leave, or circumstances change, can only be found within. And that's about developing a healthy dose of self-love, self esteem etc. A book I found really helpful, and really interesting to read was "The Road Less Travelled" by M Scott Peck. If you check out our Spiritual Books sub board, you will see I wrote a review on it some time ago. Check it out if you get time. I'd really recommend it. I'm sure your local library will have it.

Love and light
Kaz

[sparklekaz]

I suppose that the point of those painful lessons we learn Amy, is that help us to see life from a higher perspective, helps us not to get so caught up in the dramas of life. To learn what to take seriously, what to let go of, what we can't control etc. Maybe then we can start to enjoy life more, because we don't take it and ourselves too seriously. Or at least know when to and when not too. Self growth is learning about ourselves I feel. What makes us tick. Why we react as we do. Why we feel insecure, jealous, etc. How we deal with criticism. Do we analyze what's been said and see if there is any truth in it. Or do we just become defensive, offended or feel rejected.

I think we have a much better chance of embarking on healthy loving relationships that last when we love and respect ourselves more. When we don't make bad choices based on low self esteem, we don't endure or tolerate disrespectful behaviour off others towards us. We have the courage to walk away, or recognize another red flag situation in a relationship. I honestly think that if we can let go of emotional baggage, hang-ups, and negative feelings about ourselves, we can live more joyful lives. We attract positive people into our lives. I truly believe we attract what we give out. It's interesting how when people don't need other people, partners to make us feel complete, we have a much better chance of getting something loving and special. It's all connected.

Love and light
Kaz

[gruntal]

Contrary to first impressions humans do feel a need to repay anything they later regret doing. This can lead to a life of punishment or extreme service leading to vindication. But it works both ways - your tormentor may be building up bad karma for himself that HE will need to repay. And that would be YOUR fault for letting him abuse you so. But the concept of the "sacrificial lamb" is not metaphysically correct. You can not serve out another's sentence or even determine their karma. Even preventing them from their chosen suffering is problematic. What you CAN do is suggest what is going on and be able to help. But only when the recipient is ready for this and is able to forgive themselves.

[mojomojo]

Mother Teresa certainly held the fact that suffering is the way to God, maybe it stemmed from Our Lord dying on the cross, we live in a world of duality, where happiness and suffering co exist, there are many frames of thought on this,
1. Suffering catches our attention, especially pain, I firmly believe, the lessons come harder if ignored. Instant karma, those who have progressed, tend to receive the outcome quicker.
2. Law of attraction, if we look for happiness, we state we don't have it, if unhappy we attract that which will keep us there.
3. As within, so without, if we are in conflict within ourselves it will be reflected on the outside.
4. Following a spiritual path will lead to a life of bliss, maybe one day, but from my own experience, no.
For me following a spiritual path, is a learning, acquiring knowledge and putting it into practise, I do believe as you learn you move through different levels.
If detachment is learnt, one tends not to suffer as much, one accepts that one is not the body and that life will play out regardless, the ups and downs, just part of the play, you no longer become as caught up in life's dramas.
In my experience, this does not led to endless bliss, but a continual level of contentment and peace, with very little of the ups and downs of normal life, there can be times in meditation and seemingly for no reason, where one experiences higher states of ecstatic happiness, but as of yet, for my part cannot be held permeantly.
Sorry if I have rambled on a bit, but it is, I feel, a very good topic you have posed, and lastly.
5. Thought, we think far too much, if we have a problem, we think about it till we drive ourselves insane, to the extent were we can not even make a decision.
For example, if we have an experience of pain in a certain part of our body, and we concentrate on the pain, will it become worse or better, if something else attracts our attention, we may not even be aware of the pain, until our attention goes back there.
What we think about, that which we focus our attention on, intensifies.
I have heard one very well known spiritual teacher say, that we should not practise any of the healing energies as it interferes with another's karma, and that we indeed may take on their karma.
Guess that's all those who work in the medical profession then, we are meant to be striving toward a world, where people come first, but we are not meant to help anyone, in getting there.
Take it all with a pinch of salt, none of it is worth getting worried about.

[sparklekaz]

Hi Robert (mojomojo)

It's interesting, I've never heard it said before that helping someone through healing, can cause the helper to take on that karma. I've been part of discussions about healing possibly interfering with someones karmic journey. But my thoughts on that are; that if we have been put on that person's path and they come to us for help, then why can't that be part of their Karmic path? I think that someone can learn from their mistakes and understand that living a toxic or unhealthy lifestyle has contributed to their ill health. Be it physically, emotionally or spiritually. But needs help to repair any deep rooted damage. So that they need a healer to help them 'kick start' their own ability to heal. What I struggle with, is that there are so many contradictions in spiritual esoteric philosophy and teachings with regard to this.

Personally I see 'interference' as being connected to another person or people, willfully using their influence to dissuade or pull another way from following their path or being their true selves. Or outright forbidding someone to seek, for want of a better word 'outside help' for a problem or issue they are really struggling with and feel unable to get any further by themselves. And as Amy has pointed out, there is a belief that individuals actually agree from the perspective of pre-birth or higher self to meet in this life. I believe that this agreement, could just as easily relate to 'spiritual help/healing/guidance' as it could to being part of the painful lesson, that helps us grow. I for one thank God for those people. For at times they can literally save people's lives and their sanity.

Love and light
Kaz

[mojomojo]

Hello Kaz,
Yes, I agree with you one hundred per cent, there are as many theories on a subject as there are people to express it,
karma seems a subject far more complicated than the human mind can unravel,
I don't feel it is our job to figure it's workings, but to follow what resonates with us.
Though many common truths can be found in spirituality, I feel for the large part we walk alone,
Our opinions only ramblings of the mind.
I would rather help someone, if I could, rather than abstain, in the hope of advancing my own spiritual growth,
If that causes the burden of negative karma, I carry it gladly,
Whether that is through energy healing, or other means.

[sparklekaz]

Hi Robert,

I feel exactly the same way. I think we can second guess ourselves for evermore, otherwise. And though I agree with you that fundimentally the spiritual path is highly individual, man/woman have always had the need to share, discuss their beliefs with others of a likemind. Not meaning that we all think the same way, but that we all share a common desire to grow and all feel that pull towards a mindful life. That is why forums like this one are here. We don't try to tell other people what to think or do (though some do)and preaching, trying to foist our beliefs on others is actively discouraged. We simply offer to share our own thoughts and the benefit of some of the things we've discovered through our life experiences, maybe offering another perspective.

I've found over-thinking has at times caused me to go around in circles. And even though I say I'm open-minded, debate has made me face up to the fact that in my own way I can become as fixed on an idea as anyone else. A simple comment or sharing of an experience from someone else, has more than once helped me to step back, and out of that mind-set. That is why though I believe most of our spiritual growth occurs through self work and on our own, it would be lovely to spend time with a teacher/guru. Though whether this teaching occurs in the flesh or through spirit is another thing I've thought about. George has spoken about channelled guidance. Spirit guides etc That at some point we need some 'outside' help to move forward. Be interested to hear what you, Amy and others think on this.

Love and light
Kaz

[mojomojo]

I think that's another vast topic Kaz, whether we need outside help or not, we could argue that everything that occurs which promotes growth is outside help.
Having a spiritual guru/teacher has never sat well with me, but then I have always had a problem with anything that has a hint of authority attached.
At the beginning of my journey, I had this voice, that I could hold regular conversation with, but that was a long time ago, I do miss that voice and very rarely hear it now, apart from that I have had spirit guides and have always been aware of them, I could even draw a picture of what they look like, but can never hear what they are saying or maybe they never say anything but are just present.
My fondest memory is of a spirit guide, who used to laugh and when he laughed I could feel it run through me, and would at times burst into uncontrollable laughter myself, he is the only one I have met in meditation, and when he smiles an energy just passes through you, powerful, when I was in tune I would feel his laughter, magical, he seems to have stepped back now, as well.
Have I gone off track again, do we need a spiritual teacher or not, for now I would say no, but maybe a time will come when that will change.

[mojomojo]

Hello AmyLee,
Very nice to meet you,
I can only agree with everything you have said, and agree the modern version of LOA is more akin to consumerism , using spiritual law for self gratification,
but everything has its place and purpose,
I would love to get into the free will thing, but need to rush,
Till next time.

[mojomojo]

Kaz will love this.

[sparklekaz]

Who is he Robert? lol Well that's told me..

Where do I start. Aside from the fact that he talks in vague terms about the consequences of messing with people's energies, he's not really said what those consequences are. And to say that spiritual healing comes from a place of ego, when most healers actually try very hard to push to one side their own ego/self, so that they can become better conduits for the healing energy, is insulting. I'm not saying there are no people who become involved in healing practice to feed their ego's, because we both know that their is that type. To generalize and to say every healer is, is very unfair.

He says that acupuncture is ok and some of the other alternative therapies. But doesn't acupuncture also manipulate the energy fields in the body to get rid of blockages, just as reiki does? I take back what I said about having the need for a Guru lol I like what Amy said best, being in the presence of an enlightened person and benefiting from that loving, peaceful, healing energy they emit. I hope Ace watches this, can't wait to hear his thoughts on it.

Thanks for sharing Robert.. I think!!

Love and light
Kaz

[mojomojo]

Amazing isin't,
People actually hold this fellow in high regard,
Maybe, were better off not knowing, Kaz.

[sparklekaz]

Yes I think maybe your right Robert. Did you notice how no one asked him to clarify his statements or provide more information for his reasons. They all sat there just drinking it in and accepting what he said. At least that's how it looked. I'd be a terrible student under these circumstances. They'd probably chuck me out for asking too many questions and being disruptive. lol

[aceofcups]

Hi Kaz... just was reading over some of responses here and watched the video posted.  Then saw my name mentioned by you... lol

Kaz, I agree with you about his general statement was kind of weird one for him to make.. I know some people who hold him in high regard.. but I don't agree with his generalizations here.   Sure there are some people can get their ego attached of working with energy -- but the majority of people I know who do Therapeutic Touch and Reiki energy healing,  if they understand what they learned, don't directly try to manipulate another's energy but are working with Universal Higher Will and their own Higher Self and Higher self of person they are working on.  All healing or helping should be worked on in that light to me,,, and if a person is helped or healed via a treatment ultimately that is in the  hands of higher will and karmic circumstances.... not by person giving a treatment.  If one does try to manipulate energy of another being then their can be effects and consequences.

I do agree one should ask one before sending or trying to direct healing energy to another. 

I think the guru guy was trying to say ( or lat least trying to surmise his point of view) there are multiple energy systems within a person which must be taken into consideration with energy healing ,, but they also must be taken into consideration when doing more physical treatments he mentioned. ( like massage, homeopathy, acupuncturist etc)... and working with another's energy does have karmic effects. ( karmic can be both positive or negative)  Every action ( physically, emotionally, and mentally) has effects.. but one's intentions, compassion and alignment also has effects.

just my quick two cents..... didn't  read over fully all the posts in this one long thread.... so forgive me if what i said disagrees with other posts or points of view.

peace
aceofcups

[sparklekaz]

Hi Ace,

Thank you for your input, it is definitely worth more than 2 cents.

As far as agreeing or disagreeing with other comments said, there is nothing to forgive, everyone's point of view is valid and has merit. That is the whole point in sharing as we do. From what I've read, your thoughts are similar to ours and made very succinctly. I was just really surprised at how closed minded the guru was on this subject. Ultimately I feel the onus is on each individual healer to approach their healing practice in the right way. And while there will always be those who approach any spiritual practice from an ego perspective (and this also includes some very famous guru's) to tar everyone with the same brush is not spiritual, in my opinion.

Amylee, I agree with your sentiments, and think you make a valid point when you say that simply by expressing his own views in such a firm way to his students the guru could be said to be meddling with or influencing others. Clearly he is well respected by them and I'm sure with good reason, so his words will carry great weight. But, just as in that famous quote "Believe nothing, no matter where you read it, or who said it, unless it agrees with your own reason and your own common sense.” I hope they go on and look into the matter further, particularly the young women who expressed the desire to learn Reiki, or some other spiritual healing modality at a later date.

Thank you both for sharing

Love and light
Kaz

[mojomojo]

And yet people the world over seem to have this insatiable appetite, this burning need to have someone to follow, always fascinated me, how these people at the top got there, until I looked around and saw the masses in awe waving their flags, pledging their allegiance.
Is charisma that powerful?

[aceofcups]

Hi amylee... nice to meet you on forum,, long time member here,,, and into the esoteric for last 45 years,,, but can be opinionated at times with my hard-won understanding so was just putting disclaimer with post...lol

find it hard to read type on forum at times.

thanks for joining forum

peace
aceofcups

[aceofcups]

Hi Amylee...I can accept strong beliefs of others even if they are different then my own....enjoy that.    I think many issues can be looked at from multiple angles and still be relatively true from all sides at same time.   A projection of the energy of the person who has them.  Been long time student of Astrology and it has taught me not everybody sees and thinks and feels the same way about many things - because of the energy they are working with. The ONENESS of life is at the Essence Spiritual level not at personality and personal beliefs, likes or desires,

I do have more trouble with those who have a One Way, Only One Way points of view about spiritual issues at times.

peace
aceofcups

[aceofcups]

HI Amylee,   real astrology is a very deep subject -- learning to decipher, understand and work with different types of energy forces. A type of psychological and energy blueprint that people, countries and circumstances all have and work with consciously or unconsciously.   We are so much more then just our Sun sign,,, we are a combination of forces in real astrology... each planet having a specific energy and archetype connected with it etc.  Then getting more complicated by signs, houses and energy aspects that the planet makes,

Not a subject everybody is interested in,,, but an amazing tool of spiritual learning if one has the inclination to delve into it.

If your interested, check out the astrology category on the Forum here,,, did a rundown of the different planetary energies and what they are and some of ways they work a while back.

Also find numerology and Tarot symbolism other wonderful tools for insight,,,,, not into fortune telling myself -- just as tools for psychological and spiritual insights.

Just realized this long thread started on Buddhism category about suffering .. and last few messages i posted were way off field here.  Sorry

peace
aceofcups

[mojomojo]

When I first entertained spirituality, some twenty odd years ago, I befriended this old lady, we met by me obtaining a reading from her, and just seemed to click.
Thinking back, I'd wager she was into Wicca, she was the first to mention the healer thing, and encouraged for me to obtain my own tarot deck, for some reason she seemed to think the Aleister Crowley tarot deck would suit.
I obtained the deck and practised for some months, not sure if I ever reached any level on giving readings, but whatever opened up, gave me constant flashes of things about to happen, to the extent it frightened the life out of me, I could not come to terms with, where this was coming from, and how quick and strong it happened, so I gave the deck away.

My wife, many years before we met, got a reading, she was told she would met this man who she would be with for the rest of her life, that she had been with this person before, that this person would become a healer, and he emphasised at great length, "you cannot lie to this person, if you lie to him, you will lose him,"

I cannot entertain people who lie in any way, shape or form, I have never wanted to be a healer, but have done reiki 1 and 2 and have the masters booked,
Take from it what you will.

[mojomojo]

Hi AmyLee,
I do believe before we take on a human body there is some form of a blue print for the life ahead, what we will do, what lessons we are to learn, even star signs and life plan numbers seem to suggest what type of personality and career path we might take.
As we influence our future by how we are now, these blue prints have to be flexible, a reading is nothing more than the most probable outcome for where you are now, which is always subject to change, life is dynamic.
When I say, I can't entertain people who lie, doesn't mean I banish them out of my life, lol, I just find it hard to listen to.
It's a pity you have never had a good outcome from a reading, but if you haven't, that's your experience,
from my experience if you entertain it and use it, it does work.

[mojomojo]

Hi AmyLee,
I guess for most, life's beliefs stem from experiences we have encountered, if you have not experienced it, why would you believe it.
I do believe that spirituality is the blue print for life, and that we can walk in the opposite direction to what was preplanned, therein lies our free will.
But having said that, spirit will attempt through life experiences to bring us back on track, there's the free will gone again, and I firmly believe that life's lessons get harder if ignored, free will knocked flat.

We can say the same from this angle, early years, parenting, education, society, all programming us to be a certain way, where's the free will.
We use spirituality to discover we are programmed, do our internal work, break free from the constraints, feel empowered because we have discovered our own mind, and are now aware of the games others play, we understand to a degree how things work, we get great strength from this, but it's very easy to have just empowered the ego, where we still work from mind and its desires, is serving the mind free will.
Then we can go beyond the mind, into the realms of spirituality, and as they say, become one with God, but do we then serve Gods will.
You mentioned in your last post subconscious mind/ higher self, do you see these as one?

[sparklekaz]

Amy, you say that even being aware - awake, doesn't really seem to help much, because so many people still find themselves in difficult relationships or circumstances. I don't think its that simple either. The way I see it is, that even if you have become self realized, you are still dealing with people who are not. People who can only deal with life in terms of their own understanding. So if you suddenly try to change things in your own life, it doesn't just affect you. It will have a ripple effect. One of the drawbacks, if you can call it that. Is that the more we see the consequences of actions and understand their impact on our own lives, you suddenly see clearly, how what you do will impact on others. Even if it's for our highest good and will make our life better, it's knock on affect may not be so good for those people whose lives are intertwined with ours. This I've found can make it much harder to act, not easier. If that makes sense.

It's said that if we harm others when in a state of ignorance, its not as bad karmically, as doing it with full awareness. There is an arguement for seeing something from a higher perspective. I.e. you change your life but in doing so others suffer. That, that suffering is part of their life path and an important growth lesson. I find it difficult to make that distinction. And I think many sensitive, aware people find it hard too. And so as you say, some are still stuck in situations that are not good for them. This whole consequence of actions thing, I feel can be paralyzing. The more you know, the harder it can be to act. I'm sure I'm not the only person who struggles with the whole responsibility thing and whether or not we have the right to hurt others even if it's for their highest good. And so the whole 'free will' thing becomes even more of a moot point. I truly think the more awakened people become, the more self realized, the less free will they really have. Be interested to hear what you think about this.

Love and light
Kaz

[mojomojo]

I think unhappy circumstances on a personal and global level are, because of mans/woman's inner conflict, (as within so without).
If we become aware and understand the LOA we should be able to create the life we want, I don't think it comes that easy, as Rudolf Steiner said,"every man has the right to turn and face God, but you do have to earn that right."
If you put the LOA to task and it doesn't work, it could be a case of something you still hold onto, unknown, which causes the block, but there can be many other reasons, if we come into this life with a plan, part of that experience could be never to have much, just the basics, I fall under that umbrella, but it doesn't bother me, my mind set is in alignment with that, there is no resistance. You have already stated, no luck with readings, may I suggest you do out your life plan number, and see what it says, there are many sources online telling how to do it, it will cost you nothing, only a few minutes of your time, but it could explain a lot.
You may gather from this, that I'am a fan of the LOA, I'am not, I was told by a medium friend many years ago to be very careful what you ask spirit for, but having said that I have had experience that spirit is the blue print, and that which happens in the spiritual realms, does manifest on earth.
I could give you a step by step account of such an experience, but what good will it be to you, it won't be your experience, and you might not even believe it, LOL.

My theory on life is, we come here as trainees, we are at the very infant stages, out thoughts, words, attitude and actions hold power, we have to learn how to use them, wisely.
For example if everyone woke up tomorrow and was able to read everyone else's mind, what would happen, break it down to one family, I can still see carnage.
People always speak of returning to God, that doesn't work for me, spirit Is dynamic, expanding and creative, it expresses itself through us by creativity, we are meant to grow and expand and be creative, that is why we are in training, for what lies ahead.
Life is magical, you do and can effect your life, but we are just beginners.

[aceofcups]

Been trying to read some of post here about Free will or not Free will.  As in all spiritual subjects it is not simple -  yes or not to me.    Here is some of my ramblings on the subject.

 Being that we are multi-leveled evolving being on our physical, emotional, mental and other more spiritual oriented dimensions of our being - including Soul and Spiritual dimensions and connections.   Some part of our being are more conditioned and have less free will in people... they live a lot by conditioned actions, emotions and thoughts.,, some personalities have learned to have a greater degree of free will within their life by learning to focus and work with the forces of nature.  I do accept and agree as I think Robert mentioned we do come in with a certain degree of a Soul contract or destiny ( not everybody has the same degree of being bound by it) and how we align to it or not can cause us to live a smoother life or create more karma in our karmic bank account..  Smoother does not to me mean we don't suffer at times but more of a realization of where that is coming from in the grand scheme and what lessons we are learning and that we choose to learn at any particular cycle of our existence.   Also the positive karmic situations we have brought in or are creating is part of the complete picture.

To me people who have little Soul connection and people who have a great deal of Soul connection, soul experience and wisdom both seem to have less Free Will within themselves. The difference is one is done unconsciously the other consciously.   A person who feels and experiences  all of life is a suffering..seems to be totally caught in the personality drama of one's Pain Body.   They live a life with little Free Will and probably unconsciously tie themselves up more.  On the other side one who has spiritually grown to the point where they are aligning more and more and taking in more of their Soul consciousness into their daily life --- realizes the bigger picture with compassion ruling more and more parts of their life for themselves and their relationship they have in life.

To me as one grows into Soul consciousness they may have more personality Free Will but consciously want to live more and more under Higher Will..which knows the full picture of consciousness and how it is evolving at each moment..

Once we do really Master life ( few have) then eventually we are able to take a part if larger creative process working in harmony with the symphony of the Universe.


peace
acepfcups