Beaking the pattern?

[donq]

I used to post about the following story once (or twice) but would like to post it here again.


Many doctors know the story of ''Mr. Wright,'' who was found to have cancer and in 1957 was given only days to live. Hospitalized in Long Beach, Calif., with tumors the size of oranges, he heard that scientists had discovered a horse serum, Krebiozen, that appeared to be effective against cancer. He begged to receive it.

His physician, Dr. Philip West, finally agreed and gave Mr. Wright an injection on a Friday afternoon. The following Monday, the astonished doctor found his patient out of his ''death bed,'' joking with the nurses. The tumors, the doctor wrote later, ''had melted like snowballs on a hot stove.''

Two months later, Mr. Wright read medical reports that the horse serum was a quack remedy. He suffered an immediate relapse. ''Don't believe what you read in the papers,'' the doctor told Mr. Wright. Then he injected him with what he said was ''a new super-refined double strength'' version of the drug. Actually, it was water, but again, the tumor masses melted.

Mr. Wright was ''the picture of health'' for another two months -- until he read a definitive report stating that Krebiozen was worthless. He died two days later.

In his book, You Are the Placebo: Making Your Mind Matter (2014), Dr. Joe Dispenza also asked the question about this:

"Is it possible thar Wright somehow changed his "state of being", not once but twice, to that of a man who simply didn't have cancer-in a matter of days? Did his body then automatically respond to a new mind? And could he have changed his state back to that of a man with cancer once he heard the drug was purported to be worthless, with his body creating exactly the same chemistry and returning to the familiar sickened condition?..."

.............................

I do beleieve that our mind work in the miraculous way. The only problem is it can go two ways: makes us better or worse. To achive such "state of being", as Wright did, doesn't only have something to do with taking a pill, hence place effect (better) and nacebo effect (worse), but something else? What is it?

I was thinking about "breaking the pattern." Whether we've got placebo or nacebo effect, it is about the pattern, good or bad one. Our chronic problems (physical, psychological and spiritual one) seem to arise from our own bad pattern (conditioning) which bring vicious circle. I have problem, so I drink to forget about my problem. But that way, I get more and more problem. When I have pain, I take a pill (pain killer). But the more I take it, the more it cannot stop my pain. etc.
If only we could break this kind of pattern!  Can we do that?

                  

[donq]

When posting this thread, I had some question in my mind: What if spirituality is just a placebo effect?
Don't get me wrong, somehow I don't believe in that. But I have seen a lot of spiritual nacebo (and placebo) effect. Let me give you some example. (As I rather familar with Buddhist stories, so here it goes).
A nun went to the forest and was raped by a bandit. When the Buddha asked why on earth she went to that dangerous place alone, she answered she believed that the (magical) power of the Buddha could protect her. No need to say that the Buddha might get a bit of headache because of that answer.
 
It was said that after Prince Siddhārtha became a monk, he went to study and practice meditation from two famous gurus. He did it so well but finally didn't think it was a true way. So he left and searched alone in the forest. One day something reminded him of his childhood memory. He was a kid and sitting under the tree. The peaceful state of mind came to him naturally. Without searching it, nor forcing it to come. Then he started from that way until he got enlightenment later.
And after he got enlightenment, he didn't tell that the only spiritual way was we have to meditate such and such to gain our supernatural state of mind. Instead, he taught about so basic and simple things: the four noble truths.

1. The Truth of Dukkha is that all conditional phenomena and experiences are not ultimately satisfying;
2. The Truth of the Origin of Dukkha is that craving for and clinging to what is pleasurable and aversion to what is not pleasurable result in becoming, rebirth, dissatisfaction, and redeath;
3. The Truth of the Cessation of Dukkha is that putting an end to this craving and clinging also means that rebirth, dissatisfaction, and redeath can no longer arise;
4. The Truth of the Path Of Liberation from Dukkha is that by following the Noble Eightfold Path—namely, behaving decently, cultivating discipline, and practicing mindfulness and meditation—an end can be put to craving, to clinging, to becoming, to rebirth, to dissatisfaction, and to redeath.

If you are not a fan of Pali/Sanskrit, or Buddhist terms, let me put it in another way:
1. The truth of problem.
2. The truth of the Origin of problem.
3. The Truth of the Cessation of problem.
4. The Truth of the Path Of Liberation from problem.

Again, don't get me wrong, and as Ace asked Air a question on another thread, my understanding didn't come from speculation. Most of my friends here knew about my (life) story. As for someome who hasn't knowm me yet, here its summary. After I was in ICU for two months, I died once but surprised my doctors and was still alived. My parents got divorce and I had to live with my hysterical mother etc. All of these problems pused me to start my spiritual searching more than three decades ago. I used to meditate so many ways but finally focused only on mindfulness. I lived in the forest (temple) for years practicing that. It's suffice to say that I have been practicing mindfulness for almost 30 years now and never stopped doing it.
What I try to say is, after the very long time of my spiritual journey (and practice) I come to believe in natural state of mind. It is already within everyone. It might ne called in different names but it's all one taste. Blissful and peaceful state of mind.      

   
   

 

[sparklekaz]

Hi Monty,

Like you I've always been fascinated by the placebo effect. A simple word with a meaning that is 'anything but' simple. The placebo effect seems to work on many levels, but primarily it's the mind. We know that mind is very powerful. Depression and negativity makes the body heavy - suppresses the immune system - which in turn then makes the body susceptable to all kinds of disease and illness. Whereas happy positive people tend to live healthier lives and seem to sail through problems other people have. So, how do we remain well in such a fast paced, highly pressurized world that we all live in? Unfortunately, we cannot all escape to a beautiful forest or become monks in some mountain hideaway. Hidden away, protected from 'the world'.

I loved your post and I've also enjoyed reading air's. Both of you have articulated your thoughts about what causes negativity and suffering. And what we need to do to ease that pressure upon ourselves, or indeed rid ourselves of it entirely. But the saying of what is wrong and what we need to do about it, doesn't helping the doing does it. And from your post Monty, it's clear for all of us it is a very individual experience. One technique or way does not suit all.

You said Monty, "What I try to say is, after the very long time of my spiritual journey (and practice) I come to believe in natural state of mind. It is already within everyone. It might ne called in different names but it's all one taste. Blissful and peaceful state of mind." I agree with this and I think that is pretty well documented by others, maybe said differently, but all have same meaning. The problem for me and I think for many others. That 'doing something' requires some kind of 'physical/mental' action. We are not used to thinking about 'allowing' something to happen through 'non action'. If that makes sense. A surrendering of the will. To stop striving or pushing to make something happen. And then there is the problem that when we do just sit and be calm, its like the floodgates become opened in our heads. A cacophony of mental noise that can be overwhelming. All those intrustive worrying thoughts we manage to push away by 'doing' physical or mental tasks, come on with a vengence. They've been sat waiting patiently for their opportunity to speak. And when we sit and be still, its like, 'come on boys, we're on'. Let's grab them now while we have the chance. lol

I passionately believe in the bodies ability to heal itself. I know that as surely as we can 'think' ourselves well, we can also 'think' ourselves dead. Thought has the power to create and destroy. The more I think of it, the more in awe I am of the awesome power we all have between our ears. I too have found trying to live mindfully to be a big help. It's helped me to learn to live with anxiety issues that literally crippled me when I was younger. I have to say though, that without those problems, I might not have become so involved with healing and self growth. Which does raise the issue about karma, and that many of the problems that we deal with in life do have a massive effect on our emotional and spiritual growth. But I guess you and many would say that they have their place and when we have learn't the lessons they brought with them, its time to use that knowledge to free ourselves from their burden. And I would agree with that. And so the next phase of our journey begins. A great post Monty, as always you make me think. It's great to see you posting again. I hope everything is ok with you and your Mom.

Love and light
Kaz

[donq]

Hi Karen,

You said:
"I think that is pretty well documented by others, maybe said differently, but all have same meaning. The problem for me and I think for many others. That 'doing something' requires some kind of 'physical/mental' action. We are not used to thinking about 'allowing' something to happen through 'non action'. If that makes sense. A surrendering of the will. To stop striving or pushing to make something happen. And then there is the problem that when we do just sit and be calm, its like the floodgates become opened in our heads. A cacophony of mental noise that can be overwhelming. All those intrustive worrying thoughts we manage to push away by 'doing' physical or mental tasks, come on with a vengence. They've been sat waiting patiently for their opportunity to speak. And when we sit and be still, its like, 'come on boys, we're on'. Let's grab them now while we have the chance. lol"

Two thumbs up, Karen! That was really from deep experience. I know that but I don't know how to say it like that. And many writers tried to say that but tons of their books (that I read) failed to say that.

As you are a long time Reiki master (mistress?), healing so many people, have you ever experiences these kinds of thing? And do you know why it worked or didn't work?  

1. If a healer believes in Reiki but a patient doesn't? The healing still works?
-For example, you try to heal your friend. He/she doesn't believe in Reiki and just wants to please you (save your face). Will it still work?

2. If a healer doesn't believes in Reiki, neither a patient does?
-For exmaple, two scientists want to try this, to proof it. Or two kids, just playing.

3. If a healer doesn't believes in Reiki but a patient does?
-I mean, there was a time when any Reiki student was just a beginner, right? She still didn't believe in it completely and hasn't mastered her art so well.

4. If a healer believes in Reiki and a patient also does?
-This might seem strange. But I mean, will it has to work every times? Or is there any other hidden factors?  

I like what you said about "problems that we deal with in life do have a massive effect on our emotional and spiritual growth." Yes, I'm agree. There's a Chinese saying, "tough situations creat a hero/heroine." Not a vice versa.

P.S. As you, like me, also shared bad experience about our mothers, so it's safe to say that, I hate her (even I've been taking care of her cancer). I doesn't hate her because she treats me badly (which she really did that all her life) but because, well, she always behaves like my selfish mother I've known all my life. hahaha    


    

[mojomojo]

I have often wondered about those who have taken up a spiritual path, without ever having had any experiences upon which to build, or hold as a bedrock, a steady foundation.
There must be people out there who survive on faith alone, what strength that must take.
Even those of us who have had glimpses of truth, still at times struggle to carry on, maybe I was fortunate to have had experiences that left no doubt, that things are not as they seem, some I have never shared, there is no point, most likely no one would believe anyway.
Which brings me back to people, who you could say have no reason to believe, they act from fear because that's all they know, my father could have been described as a psychopath, who tried to destroy what I was about and tried to make me like him, all he succeeded in doing was getting me to look inside at a very early age, there was no where else for me to go.
Yes, I hated him for a lot of my life, but now I see him as someone who did the best he could, with what he believed to be true, I see an old man, who will never change, I still see what I perceive to be his faults, I know he was paramount to shaping who I'am, but now, I also just simple see, my father.
The placebo effect for me, doesn't enter into the world of spirituality, probably on account of one experience, where intent in the spiritual, caused immediate effect in the physical, with witnesses and the result undeniable, but the placebo's effects seem widespread in the physical, is it nothing more than positive or negative thinking, we are all aware of how powerful the mind is, can the mind effect the body, I would say, yes, which also works in reverse, the body can effect the mind.

[donq]

Hi Robert,

Good post. I also liked your post on "Escape" thread. That one was so good.


There are something else I was thinking about placebo effect. What if a healer and a patient are the same one? Can the healer heal himself/herself while s/he is sick?

Also, I was thinking about placebo spirituality. What would happen if:

1. Ateacher (speaker) believes in spirituality but a student (listener) doesn't.
-Another example is, what will happen if a teacher who believes in religion A teaches his student who believes in religion B?

2. A teacher doesn't believes in spirituality, neither a student does.
-We find that a lot in modern world. They are talking (and listening) about something they don't really believe or care about. But they feel it makes them look good doing that.

3. A teacher doesn't believes in spirituality but a student does.
-Like I said on my last post, when will a teacher be ready to teach? And most of them teach even they are not really ready. What will happen?

4. If a teacher believes in spirituality and a student also does.
-It was said that once the buddha taught his 2,000 monks: 500 monks got instant enlightenment, 500 monks could not stand to listen there and run away, 500 monks thought about it so seriously, and 500 monks didn't think about what he taught at all.

It seems that if a student is not ready, any teaching is only in vain?








 

[mojomojo]

Hi Donq,
Your first question made me smile,
For the past three weeks, I have been walking around with a slight back pain,
every day I Reiki myself, but the back pain persists,
I asked my wife to try a treatment, five minutes later the back pain was gone.
I have read somewhere down through the years, not sure how true it is,
That if one want's to work on other people, he/she cannot work on themselves,
If one wants to work on oneself, he/she cannot work on others.
It seems to be that way for me, but then it could be a mind block.

I remember when I first started entertaining spirituality, how for the first time life made sense, how I felt I had found gold,
and the overwhelming enthusiasm to tell all I knew, about what I had found.
I very quickly realised, if people are not ready they do not want to know, you will only alienate yourself.
At times we can not understand people's ways, but we lose sight of the fact, a lot are not aware.

One thing I found very strange, when meeting people who were healers, was the amount that do not seem to come from a spiritual background, not saying it's a necessity, but for me it's a very spiritual practise, with my own rituals before treatment, I always assumed one went with the other, but no, for many it seems a more clinical process, each to their own I guess.
Maybe spirituality for some is still the old way.

[gruntal]

If I am the subject of a Reiki practice I just keep my mouth shut because I don't want to hurt anybodies feeling if I don't actually feel anything. So see how nice I am ! That must count for something. You might ask why I keep coming back. Maybe I am a sleep walker? I never was sure who or what was in control.

The only thing I find troubling is most people - especially sleep walkers - do not seem to remember their dreams or realize they are dreaming and/or sleep walking. I remember quite a lot. It is still very vivid after sixty years. It just seems a challenge to reconcile reality with the dreams and know when you are awake. And when you are asleep you lose your thinking and reasoning part of you so that is a poor time to be making decisions.


Is it time for me to start feeling things ?

[donq]

Hi Robert,

Can you recommend me a blonde woman (50 something)?
Urh...I'd like to practice Reiki with her. My 30 years migraine might be better. hahaha

[donq]

Hi George,

As for keep coming back, that makes two fo us. :-)

In the old time, there were many massage parlor places here. It had nothing to do with "real massage." Neither with sex. But men (both old and young) like to go there. Some said it was just because it made him feel like a king when he was there.
Nowadays though Thai massage is better (real massage with real knowledge) and become a bit famous. But there are some that it works even (young female) massager doesn't know anything about massage at all. Like an old time. I can't think about anything else but placebo effect working there. hahaha

[bigbadbeef]

Your mind can have a severe effect on your body, take anxiety for example, during a panic attack, your own heart rate can shoot up to three times the normal rate that it has for something as trivial as a teenager being overwhelmed by homework.

My self, also being the recipient of the same phenomena, having increased sensitivity to psychological stimuli due to my hiatal hernia, am also fully aware of the phenomena as even the most minor aggravations can be quite painful for me.

So then if the mind can control something as radical such as muscles, breathing and even digestion, who says that it would have nothing to do with the immune system?