And the truth shall set you free.

[mojomojo]

FREEDOM, The ability to act without control or interference by another or by circumstance.

What exactly does the truth set you free from?

[donq]

From my ignorance?
My ignorance is my cage even when there’s no such cage.

[sparklekaz]

An interesting question Robert. What does the truth set you free from! One thing the truth can liberate someone from is I think, difficult circumstances, especially if that someone is being held back by or duped/misled, because of a lie. This also applies to our own ability to face up to the truth. For some the truth is freeing, allowing them to make informed decisions. For other's maybe the truth is too painful to face. Does knowing the truth always lead to 'improved' circumstances? Have you or anyone else discovered the truth about something and wished they hadn't? Or has learning the truth been the best thing that has ever happened to you?

You say, that 'freedom is the ability to act without control by another or circumstance'. Taken literally that is true. But I ask this question. Does the freedom to act in whatever way we wish without restraint, mean that 'we always should'? I would say freedom, is the ability to make our own thought out choices without interference from another or circumstance. But to a degree, we are still controled, if only by our own conscience. For whether we acknowledge it or not. Whatever we do, does not only effect us it will impact on others. Because that is life. All action's have consequences.

I know that there will be many people 'out there' who will have curtailed their own freedom, out of consideration for others. Their choice. No one will have said or done anything to put pressure on them. Do we pressurize ourselves? Under what circumstances do you believe making a personal choice to change your life significantly, knowing it will upset and change the lives of others also, is justified?

Love and light
Kaz

[mojomojo]

If, we do not know we are controlled,
And the truth, let's us know we are controlled,
We are still controlled, just now we are aware of it,
Maybe we were better off not knowing.

The truth, when we apply it to life,
Can help us make better decisions,
And avoid difficulties,
But, improvement is not freedom.

So, is the statement, " and the truth shall set you free," an illusion.

[donq]

You asked damn good questions, Karen. (Sorry for that word but I needed it to show that your questions were more than ordinary good). :-)
Yes, our own ability to face up the truth.
Let me tell you a true story. I knew a husband who cheated on his wife. Everyone knew this except his own wife. Someone told me that, she could not except this truth from other except his husband. I mean, he had to be the one who told her himself, otherwise she still fool herself that he didn’t cheated on her because that truth was too painful to face it.
If she knew this truth, would it improve her/their situation? I really don’t know. As for me, I’d rather chose to know the truth than a lie. And I did, twice. Have I ever wish I should not know the truth (that my wife cheated on me)? Hmm…I don’t think so. As you used to say somewhere on another thread, somehow we knew it deep down that something was wrong. If just we don’t have enough courage to face it. And as long as we still don't face the truth, we will still stay in those never ending pain (PLUS incredible doubts). Yes, the painful of the truth is so tough, but it will be wear off by itself, some day.
Speaking about spirituality, I think we should embrace the truth in any case, no matter how painful it is. Because it will make us grow, to further level of spirituality. No way we can go further with a lie. No way!

I still don’t clear about what you said below:

“I would say freedom, is the ability to make our own thought out choices without interference from another or circumstance. But to a degree, we are still controlled, if only by our own conscience. For whether we acknowledge it or not. Whatever we do, does not only effect us it will impact on others. Because that is life. All action's have consequences.”

I believe that sometimes spiritual conscience goes beyond normal normal conscience. Yes, whatever we do, will effect us and impact on other around us. If after knowing that her husband cheated on her, she still choose to keep their marriage for the sake of their kids, is that the true choice? (I know some wives really did that.) Though I never interfere with their choices (even sometimes I was in the position to give them some advice) but I personally disagree. Again, lie is a lie. In most religion, it still a serious sin. Though lie has many layers of meaning but all meanings are bad.

Yes, life is always like that. All action’s have consequences. But if (from that example) that wife didn’t’ do anything for her husband’s lie/cheated on her, how could he get that consequence? (I didn’t mean in the revenge’s sense). And how could SHE get her consequence? (She should not be with that bad husband, right?)


P.S. I was going to take a nap but have to spring from my bed and wrote this after I saw your post. :-)
P.P.S. Sorry for any typo. Fast typing without stopping.

[sparklekaz]

Hi Monty,

When I said "I would say freedom, is the ability to make our own thought out choices without interference from another or circumstance. But to a degree, we are still controlled, if only by our own conscience. For whether we acknowledge it or not. Whatever we do, does not only effect us it will impact on others. Because that is life. All action's have consequences.”

An example of this, might be. A man has a wife and family. He is under a lot of pressure, at work, at home. He feels unappreciated and taken for granted. He cannot eat or sleep because of worry. So much is demanded of him. Sometimes things get so bad he wants to 'run away'. He wishes he could walk out of the door and not look back. Sometimes he even imagines himself doing it. He makes plans in his head. No more pressure, no more stress. But then, he thinks of the pain and the suffering this would inflict on his family and cannot do it. But if he wanted to, he could! One might say he is not free, he is a prisoner of his circumstances. But that isn't true. Because there are many men who would have walked away and have done. He chose not to. His choice no one elses.

I agree with you Monty. I would rather be temporarily hurt by the truth, then be lied to. Georges Bernanos said "Truth is meant to save you first, and the comfort comes afterward." People often say they refrained from telling someone the truth because they did not want to hurt them. But I think the real reason is that they are 'afraid' of the fall out that occurs from the telling. It is easier to maintain the 'illusion' that there is nothing wrong. We are all good at fooling ourselves. I believe that a life that is built on a lie will have foundations of sand. Eventually things will crumble and come tumbling down; because a lie will always rise to the surface, no matter how hard people try to supress it. Better to build your life upon truth. There is no stronger foundation.

Robert.. I do believe the truth can set us free. In as much as it allows us to see things for ourselves, with nothing obscured or hidden. The right to make informed choices. Freedom is such a subjective word, and one which can mean different things to people. Without hijacking your question Robert, I'd like to share a post that I wrote about freedom in 2012. I hope you like it. www.spiritualforum.me.uk/thread/3573/freedom

Love and light
Kaz

[mojomojo]

Kaz,
Your story of the man with wife and children, and work and worry and pressure, and that it was his choice to stay , and no one else's.
Not sure if it was entirely his choice, fear of what other people would think of him, his parents, wife's parents, work colleagues, and society at large, then the preprogrammed thinking of, it's his duty, I'am not saying he should walk away, only that he didn't necessarily have freedom of choice, so in a sense he was trapped.

It's not about, if we should do the truthful thing and whether it's beneficial or not, whether a husband tells his wife he is having an affair or not, either way neither one is free.
It's about spiritualities claim that the truth will set you free. Let me give this example, sorry, I hope I'am not been insensitive here.

The number one regret of people on there deathbed,
I wish I had the courage to live a life true to myself,
Not the life others expected of me.

And, yes I'am well aware some people are in situations where they feel they have no choice, but that's it, is there such a thing as freedom, or, are all our decisions largely influenced, and if so, what is this thing spirituality is meant to free us from.

[tribunalofmercy]

Robert ♥ I'm going to write without typing it somewhere first...what is spirituality, anyway? By definition - and even with a definition, could we all agree on what it is? It seems to have something to do with God, or maybe Right Thinking/Living, etc. That's often what people add somewhere into the definition...what does it have to do with freedom?


Do you think perhaps Everyone is right - at least in part? Perhaps awareness of the spiritual/unseen/higher things brings us freedom from ignorance. Perhaps knowledge of some 'truth' brings us freedom from that ignorance. Perhaps it is freedom from the trappings of this world that we seek? The feeling that we are on a runaway train of worldly care and responsibility to please our famiies, our employers, our teachers, our friends and neighbors and maybe everyone Else we come in contact with.

But are not those the trappings of our Own minds and choices? We must have a job/work to make money; we must make money to keep a roof over our heads and food to eat, lights and heat, clothes to wear, etc. We must come home (eventually) and spend time with family to show our love for them. We must attend religious services or family gatherings or social events to let people Know we are concerned about them, that they matter. If we do not, we Have not, in those ways. If we do not do all these things, what will people think? We must take care of our loved ones when they are ill. We must stand By them when other things happen to them, because didn't we promise to? Isn't it the Right thing to do?

What is freedom? Is freedom the release of all of these perceived "burdens" of responsibility? Would we be Free, if we did not have to work, or care for others? If we did not Have to mind God's commandments, or laws of government, or worry about what anyone else Thought of us?

Perhaps it truly is our Thinking that creates the cage in which we live. We do things because think or believe we Have to, thus making us dissatisfied and unhappy because we see all these things as Control over us....what if, instead of "having to live", we woke up each day thinking, "I GET to go to work today. I GET to take care of my family. I GET to pay my bills. I GET to love those who do not love me. I GET to go through my entire day with no appreciation from those around me. I GET to walk in joy, or in suffering, in each Day, because I CAN."


One of the things I have learned as a bipolar, is to see that whether I am extremely happy (manic), or depressed, or anywhere in the middle, my thinking is what changes....the life Around me has not truly changed, with a mood swing. Everything is as it was before, but "I" see the world differently. I could say the awareness has given me some control over it, and that is true...but it has also (to me) given me Freedom. Freedom to live Anyway, no matter What is, or is not, going on around me.


I have some PTSD because of being raped several times in my life, Robert. (don't feel sorry for me or anything, though - I am not talking about it for any reason except relevance of freedom). Only five short years ago I came to a revelation about this because someone said some things to me when I was "trapped in a room" at work with the person and felt I could not leave the scene....I ended up "seeing red" and attacking them physically. (lovely, isn't it?)


But since then I have found freedom, spiritually, seeing myself through the eyes of God, who sees differently than I do; these things truly do not touch me anymore, for the most part. I am no longer There, so to speak, because I am Free to Live differently. Yesterday someone was talking about something that triggered me and I almost "reacted" - then I realized I was Free to be Myself, apart from anything that might be said or done by anyone else....and I laughed to myself; it no longer Mattered.


To me, that is a big part of what I call "spiritual" Freedom (since I learned it from God)...No matter where we are, what our circumstance or what we are doing in life, we are free to Choose how we experience it.

[sparklekaz]

Hi Robert,

I do understand what you mean in relation to the story. What I was trying to point out was, that there are people who are subject to the same peer pressure, or expectations of society, conditioned behavour etc. Who still choose to ignore all of that and walk away. Indeed some people have done that. Occasionally we hear stories of people who have broken down under the mental strain of their circumstances and have just disappeared. There are also people who have no problems whatsoever, with a guilty conscience, and will do exactly as they please. I don't think we can just assume that other's will have the same sense of what is right or wrong as we do. And I've found under certain circumstances, people can suprise us, by acting out of character.

I agree with you totally, that we shouldn't allow fear of what other's might do or say, prevent us from doing what is right. By not doing what feels right, what is truthful, will go against our own moral compass. That even though it is not our lie that is being propogated. By staying silent, we become accomplices to that lie and become liars too. So I agree, if I knew that a lie was being perpetuated I could not stay silent. The truth may open Pandora's box, and that will always be a worry, particularly if we don't want to see people we care for hurt. I think it's important that people remind themselves, that it was the lies of another that set things in motion to come to this point. That any fallout or damage is down to them not us for lying in the first place.

I think there are probably many people who come to the end of their lives with some regret. But.. we could just as easily say, that on our death bed's we might be filled with regret for the things we chose to do and wished we hadn't. It's all 'swings and roundabout's' isn't it. Life will always offer us many options and choices? Is it possible to 'try everything'? I have to believe that there is a higher purpose that influences us and guides us, in what we say and do. That even the things that go wrong were mean't to be. If only to teach us some valuable lesson. We all do what we feel is right for us at the time. We can only base our decisons on what we know and feel 'in any given moment'. Foresight is a luxury few of us are given. I have to trust we are guided my some inner motivation, even if we do not become aware of it's purpose for some time. When I look back on my own life and the ecisions I've made Of course I have regrets. I would often say, 'if only when I did that, some unseen hand could have reached out and stopped me. Or I wish I'd been given a nudge or hint by the universe that I was turning my back on what would turn out to be a fantastic opportunity. But if that happened, would we ever grow and mature as human/spiritual beings. What about free will?

Love and light
Kaz

[sparklekaz]

Dear Mary Anne,

I do enjoy looking at this question through your eyes.

I agree with a lot of what you have said. You said "Perhaps it truly is our Thinking that creates the cage in which we live. We do things because think or believe we Have to, thus making us dissatisfied and unhappy because we see all these things as Control over us....what if, instead of "having to live", we woke up each day thinking, "I GET to go to work today. I GET to take care of my family. I GET to pay my bills. I GET to love those who do not love me. I GET to go through my entire day with no appreciation from those around me. I GET to walk in joy, or in suffering, in each Day, because I CAN."

To me this is the crux of the issue. It is about perspective. It's about choice. We can focus on the negative or choose to see the positives. A man/women can be a prisoner of their own thoughts just as much as being inprisoned in a cage. I hope when I get to the end of my life, instead of focusing on what I feel I'd missed out on, or regretted. My thoughts will be of deepest gratitude. For the gift of life, and for being given the opportunity to love, be loved and to learn.

Love and light
Kaz

[mojomojo]

Mary Anne, Kaz,
Thank you for your replies,
This question came into my mind yesterday and I can't let go of it, while I completely understand what you are saying, something inside me is niggling away, and it's
not content yet.
Basically what I'm getting is that it's how we look at it, is it a good day, or bad day, it's our choice.
If a person rises above what I call the preprogrammed mind, and is not influenced by what others think of them, you would say, he has the freedom of his own mind.
Some would see his choices and label him selfish, but there are two sides to selfish, one, a greedy person, who only thinks of him self, two, a way of controlling by guilt, to bring him back to the preprogrammed mindset.
So who is right, the laws of rightful living/spirituality, where did they come from, man or GOD.
I will use this example to explain where I'am coming from, not that I agree with it, actually I was quite shocked.
Teal Scott on one of her video's, said that in the eyes of spirit, murder was neither right or wrong, it was just karma been played out, and obviously been collected as well, that there was no right or wrong as such, just life playing itself out.
Not that someone who has freedom of mind, has to do something wrong, but it seems we either follow the laws of man or not, and spiritual/karma, either way , even with a positive outlook, I'am not seeing this freedom, so do we boil it down to a positive outlook or negative, either way, freedom is still an illusion.

[tribunalofmercy]

Wow, Robert. I saw this coming- truly I did. And there is a Part of me that wants to "keep going", try to share, yet another part of me that Knows you must deal with this one without my input, you know? The "safety net" has been jerked out from under you. You saw some Truth, and it has not set well yet, because of where you Are, looking at it.

...Been there. Felt Really strange, like I had eaten something spoiled, you know? And yet, Now, I know there is light at the end of the tunnel. A way of Understanding things, that instead of making me sick makes me Understand differently, knowing there Is additional information given, as we travel. For example, when we see only Two answers to something, there are Three. ...something like that, anyway.

You are not alone. And there is Still part of me that wishes we could have gone through this slower, but here it is. I just want you to Know, you're not alone. Don't give up based only on what you See, at the moment.

Mary Anne

[donq]

Hi Robert,

I was thinking about Bateson's "Men are grass: Metaphor and the World of Mental Process"

Men Die.
Socrates is a man.
Socrates will die.

Versus

Grass Dies.
Men die.
Men are grass.

Bateson pointed out that this kind of mental process (men are grass) happened if we mix two different logic together.

There is right and wrong.
And there's not right and wrong.

Yes, both are true, in the different context.
That's it. That's all.

[mojomojo]

Donq, you are a master,
Yes, this makes perfect sense,
How do you make everything so clear, with so few words,
Once again, many thanks, Donq.

[aceofcups]

Robert's question :
FREEDOM, The ability to act without control or interference by another or by circumstance.

What exactly does the truth set you free from?


my opinion on question

It sets one free from conditioned ego thinking, once one is free and has real freewill on all levels of one's Being -- they then realize the only way is to be One with Conscious Divine Higher Will - with is state of freedomless freedom ,, so it's another paradox.

On the personality level Freedom is essential .. in order to try to live a spiritual life in theses times. But takes lots of spiritual work and discipline to truly free ourselves. But ego Freedom can also lead to a great deal of extra karma if one doesn't know or use it with consciousness.

aceofcups

[gruntal]

The concept of truth has alas not been accepted or understood for a long time. The reason being we assumed truth was a sort of burden or penalty - or privilege - enacted on us by our superiors. Or a power we could use on those below us. Not surprisingly freedom was also misunderstood as something we could possess. Both instances seemed to hinge on the belief we owned something or something owned us.

That a person could actually BE the truth was rather embarrassing to those the Master was talking to since (according to John the apostle ) the crowd seemed to dote on circumstances. Using the rationale of inheritance was a problem too since it was just limited to the biological. I guess the concept of truth being universal and eternal was nice but not nice enough to bridge the gap between life and death.

I tend to think the truth will set you free of death.

[mojomojo]

Hi Ace,
That is exactly what I was trying to get to,

On the personality level freedom is essential, but takes lots of spiritual work to truly free ourselves.

That's it, that's what I was looking for, could I be so bold as to ask you to go into that in more depth.

Many thanks for anything you have to offer,

Robert.

[donq]

Dear Robert,
You're welcome, my friend.
Hmm...maybe English is not my first language, that was why I didn't know how to use many words?

[aceofcups]

HI Robert,,, not sure what you were asking,,,, but yes to get to "a bit" of freedom on the personality level of our being we have to work through "conditioned" responses on the physical, emotional and mental levels of our being, The conditioning can happens in a number of ways in our life.

To my understanding, we live in a lawful Universe, created with and under hierarchical ( i know you hate the word..lol) natural laws,,, and these "laws" exist on multiple levels of our being. N It is like wheels within wheels,, Hierarchical does not mean some laws are better then another but some are more encompassing to me.

Then of course then there are laws which humans have made socially and such,, they may or may not be attuned to natural laws. Which can halt some of our outer freedoms.

But spiritual laws exist - some we are aware of, some less so, some we may not like so we rationalize them by bypass beliefs, some have karmic energy and circumstances connected to them.

Freedom and Free will are Uranian subjects. ( your favorites ) to me they must we looked at Wholistically, not taken out of context.


just my two cents
aceofcups

[mojomojo]

Hi Ace,
Thanks for the reply
Yes, freedom for me is an inner burning desire, always has been,
So, no matter which way we view the matter, whether in the physical or spiritual, our degree of freedom is limited,
Even total reunion with spirit in itself is a collective of sorts, might explain why the separation happened in the first place, too much potential Uranium energy, might be as close as we can come to the ideal of freedom.
I understand totally what everyone else was saying, and yes everyone was correct in their own right, but wondered if it was possible to achieve total freedom of mind, while in the physical, and if that in itself would further spiritual growth.
I do think as Donq, pointed out, that I was getting it slightly out of context, so I guess, it's a case of, certain degrees of rather than absolute.
But, again thank you for your reply, much appreciated.


                    And the truth has the potential, to make you feel more free.

Robert.

[alvinw333]

Spiritual freedom is Liberation from the Wheel of the Eighty-Four, or Wheel of life, karma, reincarnation, an all ills from the mortal life, the ability to go and come among the worlds of the cosmic order. Jivan Mukti, spiritual liberstion here and now. This is spiritual freedom, may the Truth set you free