Which style do you prefer...?

[donq]

Which style do you prefer to use for helping the others?

1. debating
2. sarcasm
3. sarcastic debating

Hahaha! Just kidding above.

Here’s an example from Chuang Tzu, an ancient Chinese sage:

A man of Sung, one Ts'ao Shang, was sent by the king of Sung as envoy to the state of Ch'in. On his departure, he was assigned no more than four or five carriages, but the king of Ch'in, greatly taken with him, bestowed on him an additional hundred carriages. When he returned to Sung, he went to see Chuang Tzu and said, "Living in poor alleyways and cramped lanes, skimping, starving, weaving one's own sandals, with withered neck and sallow face - that sort of thing I'm no good at. But winning instant recognition from the ruler of a state of ten thousand chariots and returning with a hundred of them in one's retinue - that's where I excel!"
Chuang Tzu said, "When the king of Ch'in falls ill, he calls for his doctors. The doctor who lances a boil or drains an abscess receives one carriage in payment, but the one who licks his piles for him gets five carriages. The lower down the area to be treated, the larger the number of carriages. From the large number of carriages you've got, I take it you must have been treating his piles. Get out!"

When I was a young man, I still didn’t understand Chuang Tzu. I thought there should be another style to “teach/help” the others. As William Arthur Ward said:

“The mediocre teacher tells.
The good teacher explains.
The superior teacher demonstrates.
The great teacher inspires.”

However, when I get older, I have to admit that sometimes
telling, explanation, demonstration/inspiration really didn't work, and Chuang Tzu’s style is inevitable (though I still don’t dare to use it, for my own safety. lol)

[In that context, Ts'ao Shang wanted to boast his fortune and mocked Chuang Tzu who “"Living in poor alleyways and cramped lanes, skimping, starving, weaving one's own sandals…” even he was a great sage. Ts'ao Shang didn’t know that Chuang Tzu refused so many times to serve the king.]     

When I lived in the forest temple, I had 50 students (pre-school, age between 3-5 years old.) There was a  artesian well nearby. I didn’t know how to tell my students not to play near it because it was very dangerous. One grandmother (villager) just told them there was a child eaten demon living in the well. And it was very effective! After that none of my little students dare to come close to that well any more. And there was no tragical accident either.    

[baangus]

Hi donq. Everyone has their own communication style. It's an individual thing based on a person's background and relationship to life. It's also based on a person's temperament type, astrological influences, and so forth. And age of course - we get better at communicating as we become older and wiser.

You can say for example that a great teacher inspires, but what does that mean? What is the source of this inspiration? Inspiration hasn't anything to do with teaching style. Inspiration has to do with being honest and sincere, and communicating honestly with others. That's what inspires people in my opinion. I'm inspired by people who are authentic. Their message and their individual point of view doesn't matter to me. I can disagree completely with someone yet still be inspired by their credibility and trustworthiness.

[donq]

Hi b,

“Hi dong. Everyone has their own communication style. It's an individual thing based on a person's background and relationship to life. It's also based on a person's temperament type, astrological influences, and so forth. And age of course - we get better at communicating as we become older and wiser.”
-Wow! You changed my name to be urh…so sexy? :-)
Yes, agree with you. And what do you think about “criticize by not criticizing?” I read somewhere that it was the best criticizing (don’t even waste your time to criticize.) As for me it’s both. Best because maybe it’s the only way for someone that we should walk away. Worst because it lacks of compassion toward that person (to help them)?

“You can say for example that a great teacher inspires, but what does that mean? What is the source of this inspiration? Inspiration hasn't anything to do with teaching style. Inspiration has to do with being honest and sincere, and communicating honestly with others. That's what inspires people in my opinion. I'm inspired by people who are authentic. Their message and their individual point of view doesn't matter to me. I can disagree completely with someone yet still be inspired by their credibility and trustworthiness.”
-Hmm…true. So, you mean the real meaning of inspiration (for the others) is from within, not without? Does this mean any teacher/helper cannot expect to inspire anyone, to help them? If we want to help someone, we cannot have any plan in our minds to approach them beforehand? But we have to let it happen naturally? How can we be sure that we can help that this way?

My questions came from something I have been thinking for a long time. Why each individual understands the same message differently? I used to post the below on another thread but it will make my point here:

A new shop selling fish was opened in a village. A display board hung on the shop said "FRESH FISH SOLD HERE". A passerby came to the shop keeper and said "Why at all should you use such a big name board? The word "FRESH" appears to be superfluous because no one will buy stale fish because you are selling only fresh fish". The man thought over and
felt the observation was right. He removed the word "FRESH" from he board. Only "FISH SOLD HERE" was left.Another person visited his shop and said - "The very fact that you have opened this shop means - that you are selling. It is not for charity. Therefore the word "SOLD: is irrelevant". This also appeared logical to the shop keeper. He wiped off the word "SOLD" also. Now only the words "FISH HERE" remained.A third person passed by and said " it is very clearly understood that you sell fish here only and not anywhere else because you shop is here and not somewhere else. There is no other shop in this village. So the word "HERE" is superfluous". This also appeared logical to the shop keeper and he wiped off that word too. Now only the word "FISH" was left out.An old lady passing by saw the board and told him - "Isn't it obvious that you are selling only fish and nothing else. Even a blind person can smell the fish from as far as a kilometer away and identify that fish is sold here. Why this word "FISH" then? "The shop keeper finally removed this word also. Thus the whole name board was removed.

Sometimes, when someone have their own ego/biases/prejudices/hidden agendas, I do understand them. What I never understand is why someone who are really innocent understand something in the wrong way? For example, there are two parties of political fighting here. One party quoted about something that they should not quote at all. Because it meant they were (unconsciously) supporting the other’s party!?!    

[baangus]

Apr 28, 2014 13:34:30 GMT donq said:

So, you mean the real meaning of inspiration (for the others) is from within, not without?

Hi donp. Doesn't everything that's meaningful and of lasting importance come from within? As spiritual beings having physical experiences, it's the inner soul connections we make that contribute to the evolution of spirit and all Creation.

There's another element to this question of yours: What is it that each individual finds inspiring? I'm inspired by honesty and authenticity, and for me the particular message doesn't matter all that much. Other people need to feel connected to the specific message in order to feel inspired, whether it's a political message, or religious message, or what have you.

Getting back to your William Arthur Ward comment, the only thing any good teacher needs to understand is that they're not there to teach anybody anything. They're a student of life who is simply sharing their current understanding of things, with other students. Whether or not anybody learns anything from all that isn't the exercise. The meaningful aspect is in the sharing itself.

But again, that's just my individual perspective and interest regarding the question of what meaningful communication is all about. I don't go into situations trying to "help others" as you put it. I can't help someone, they have to help themselves. Plus I'd say most people aren't necessarily looking for help. Rather, they're looking for confirmation and will naturally gravitate towards teachers they feel comfortable with, and answers that are easy and comfortable for them to process. All I can do is share my point of view regarding their particular situation and leave it at that.

[donq]

Hi b,
Ok…crystal clear about inspiration by not intending to teach but only to share. (wu-wei : action by non-action.) They will learn from (good) example by themselves (if and whenever they would like to), right?
Hmm…but I’m still curious (not doubt or question) about what you said,
“I'd say most people aren't necessarily looking for help. Rather, they're looking for confirmation and will naturally gravitate towards teachers they feel comfortable with, and answers that are easy and comfortable for them to process…”
This may be my point. If we know that in advance, why bother to share anything with them in the first place? Because they will look for “only” confirmation and answers that are easy and comfortable for them to process.” And this kind of sharing might come from our ego?
Any fake teacher could take advantage of this by spoiling/poisoning them with saying anything that please them. While the real teachers will never do that and would rather remain silence than sharing anything at all. And even we honestly share something with them without any intention to teach/inspire, just pure intention to share, sometimes that will only increase their self-defense mechanism. I have seen that sometimes this even will prolong them to come close to their answers just because we share something they don’t want to hear or before the time they really want to hear.
Besides, when it comes to spiritual stuff, is there anything easy and comfortable? We, as human being tend to flow to the dark side (ego/ignorance/emotion etc.) To overcome ourselves, our ego, ignorance, emotions never be easy task, doesn’t it?
I think of what all sages used to warn us. Rather be alone and live in solitude than popular in the crowd.  

[baangus]

Apr 28, 2014 16:54:22 GMT donq said:

If we know that in advance, why bother to share anything with them in the first place? Because they will look for “only” confirmation and answers that are easy and comfortable for them to process.” And this kind of sharing might come from our ego?

I think of what all sages used to warn us. Rather be alone and live in solitude than popular in the crowd.  

Very interesting comments donq. In a real sense that's where I'm at in my life now: living in solitude. I live away from the city and people. I have no close friends or acquaintances. I don't interact with people anymore except in passing: saying hello to a neighbour while out walking, that sort of thing.

Opinionating has become a societal obsession. And I agree most of it is ego-driven. We all want to think we have something worthwhile and meaningful to add to the conversation. As I see it though, there's a distinction that can be made regarding opinionating versus discussing things in a meaningful manner: Is the motive to convince, or to converse?

Understanding the transitory and even illusionary nature of knowledge, I try not to take my opinions and beliefs seriously. Therefore I don't need to sell anything to anyone. All I'm doing is communicating and sharing, nothing more, and I'm not looking to get anything out of it. Whereas others approach their opinions and beliefs with a kind of life-or-death seriousness. People as I said seem to be either searching for confirmation from like-minded others. Or they feel it's somehow important in the great scheme of things to argue and defend their political, religious or philosophical beliefs. Back-and-forth sharing in the form of authentic dia-logue – listening, reflecting and appreciating – is a dying art form IMO if it isn't dead already thanks to the internet, Twitter and the like.

Getting back to your original question, I suppose I would say my preferred style is open, in-depth discussion. I can't say my style is debate because, again, I have no interest in convincing anyone or arguing my point of view.