I Ching

[donq]

[Dear moderator, I choose to post this thread on this board, because I Ching is not about astrology (in my opinion) but rather spiritual advice. But please feel free to move it there, if it should be there.:-) ]

Hi everyone,

I’m regretting that I should not say something about "sanctuary" "going on" etc.  Anyway, here is my repay for the kindness of all my friends here.

First of all, frankly and honestly speak, I will feel more than relief if no one post reply on this thread at all (here, it’s not a reverse psychology.) Because my job’s already done here without doing anything next. :-)

Secondly, though I had been studied I Ching (Zhouyi, Yijing) or Book of Changes for almost 30 years, and even wrote a book about it (half of this book was my long time personal research on spirituality) but I stopped reading/interpreting for anyone who asked me to do that for a long while (with my personal reason.)

Anyway, if you are interested, please find more information about I Ching by yourself first (because I don’t want to convince you anything about it.) Or you can read this (I randomly picked it which I think it’s ok site.)

1. How to Consult the I Ching by casting 3 coins

divination.com/resources/articles/iching-reading/

2. I Ching Hexagram Lookup

divination.com/iching/lookup/

3. Full text of I Ching online (it’s considered to be one of the best versions of I Ching)

www.wisdomportal.com/IChing/IChing-Wilhelm.html

You can do this all by yourself. And please do it all by yourself, ok?

But if you have any question, please feel free to post it here. I will try to help you interpret it as much as I could. But remember this, your life is always in your hands. Don’t let anything or anyone make you think otherwise. It’s just that sometimes, there is not only one way to go from A to B. There are so many different ways. I’m just another (tour) guide who might or might not show you the way. It’s always up to you to choose.

My rule:
1. Just post here which hexagram you got (1- 64) You don’t need to tell me what your question is.   
2. I Ching texts are very symbolic spirituality. We will never get the direct answer. But one thing for sure is, we will always get the answer that help to uplift our understandings of life. The ups and downs of life.    
3. If I delay in any reply, it's just because I really cannot access to the internet. And I apologized in advance, if that will be the case. 

P.S. A few things that you have to be careful.
1. Have to relax and concentrate before asking/casting 3 coins (don't use big coins, only small/middle sized ones)
2. Only ask the important question in your life (and not two same question per day.)
3. Don’t ask something like “should I go/choose to A or B”? Instead, ask “what would happen if I go to A?” or “what would happen if I go to B?”  
4. The first casting is the lowest line in a Hexagram. The last casting is the top (6 th line)
5. Don’t pay attention much about X (3 tails) O (3 heads) you got yet. It’s just tell about where you (your situation) are now in those 6 lines in the hexagram (past, present or future.)

And please, please, please do all of these by yourself without posting anything here. I beg you and am praying.

[donq]

Hi everyone,

After talking to my great friends on another thread, I think I should add something here a bit.

Please don’t get me wrong about my previous post here. I loved to share what I know about I Ching. But my only (BIG) problem is English is not my first language. And I Ching was a very ancient Chinese. Not to mention about its delicated symbol/interpretation. I have to deal with 3 languages: Chinese, English and my own. I’m afraid that I cannot do that so well. (If only I could post in my own language, you might have to read so many long pages here, everyday. )

Anyway, let me say something here.

1. “I Ching will come to you when the times is right/ripe” I’m not trying to say something mysterious. It’s really that way, from my experience.

2. When you want to study I Ching (or any old texts on future prediction) you have to start with its (very) complicated symbol/interpretation. There’s no other way. But it might be a shortcut (see below.)

3. The shortcut is trying to study/remember only what is necessary in the real life situation.

4. Any prediction tool (cards, coins etc.) is the way to communicate with our unconscious mind, higher self, angel etc. If your state of mind is sad, then, you hands would a bit shake and you would cast the coins in a certain way, not a good one. On the contrary, if your state of mind is peaceful, your hands will be firm, and you will cast your coins in the better way and get better answer. See my point?

5. The texts in I Ching (or any future prediction tool) was recorded from trial and error. In ancient times, our ancients already tried this and record it all down. It was not their imagination. Besides, they were more honest than people in our time for sure.

Back to I Ching. The best way is you have to try to interpret it by yourself. Make a note on every question you asked. For example, when you ask A question today, then what will happen when you do or don’t do as I Ching advise. Then write it down. In the next months, if you happen to get the same answer again (whether you might ask the same question or not) you can be able to compare note and gain more and more understanding of your interpretation. Hence your deep wisdom.

May the force be with you!

[donq]

Ace, one of my dear friends, dedicated his time and effort posting on Astrological Symbolism. I feel a bit guilty that I should do something like that for our forum. More than that, another dear friend of mine also asked me to do this, but recently I don’t have enough time to do it. Besides, I have to write it in English which is not my first language. So I hesitated for a while.
Anyway, our forum seems to be a bit quiet recently, I think I might contribute something here and I’ll add some more later from time to time, when I have enough time than this.

I had spent more than 30 years studying and practicing I Ching (or Book of Changes). After some years of doing that everyday, I found myself having more than 60 versions of I Ching. And at some point I decided to write a book on it in my native Language. However, I will not bother you what I Ching is (please Google it if you are interested). What I will post here is something more personal.

First of all, let me tell that I Ching is a 3,000 years old book. There are many interpretations of it. Some even think it’s the book of divination. But I think divination is only its most outer shell because its core is a handbook of spirituality.

Your may be curious what I’ve got from Ching after I had spent 30 years with it. Hmm…suffice to say that it helped me succeeded more than I could imagine. And I also failed more than I could imagine, too (because I misinterpreted it.) Let me give you an example of my success and failure: before I become a freelancer, I still worked full time in some offices. I changed my job 10 times within 15 years and got better job all the time. Yes, I consulted I Ching and got the great advice every time. This was my success. What was my failure? I divorced twice. hahaha.
I can assure you that if you want to succeed in whatever you are doing, I Ching can help you get it easily (if you are truely sincere to yourself and I Ching). But the more important thing about Ching is it will teach you to handle with your failure. Because it’s the law of nature: after any success, comes failure.

How can you consult I Ching and get its answers? I already told and posted some links about it above.

Asking I Ching is the way to communicate with your unconscious mind. More than that, it’s the way to communicate with universal mind (energy). If you are in such and such states of mind while you are asking question to I Ching, your unconscious mind will control your hands (without your knowing) while you are tossing the three coins (or yellow stalk) and you will get such and such answer.

To explain it more simple: there are 64 hexagrams or 64 answers for 64 state of mind. I or anyone cannot provide you these numbers (1-64). You have to do it by yourself. That’s it. That’s only way, the right one.

You may ask, I Ching’s answers are just imaginations, or fictionsl? From my 30 years of personal experiment and research, I can assure you that it’s not. It’s a real deal. Not directly for worldly success but spiritual one.

Why does it give a accurate answer for your problem? you may ask. Hmm….any system of predicting the future like this (divination, astrology etc.) are statistical collections of answers. For example, in the ancient time, when King A wanted to know the right solution for big problem in his kingdom, he asked his seer. His seer gave him such and such answers. After that, if, say, solution A was the right solution, then the seer added it into I Ching/divination book. Or let’s see it this way, if I predict that you should plant such and such particular flower in such and such season, and should not plant it in such and such seasons, you will not be surprise and know that it’s true, right? So does I Ching or any divination system (yes, even it's much more complicated than planting a rose :-)

Ok, this is my (personal) summary of I Ching. But the best way to be good at it is consulting it as much as you could. You have to try it by yourself only.

Hope this helps.

P.S. I wrote this without stopping. I’m sorry If there were some points that were roundabout.

[tribunalofmercy]

All these things are interesting, Monty - obviously (like the astrology) these are things I know little to nothing about....so I wonder if it makes a difference what direction you are throwing the coins? Maybe? (I'm not going to try this at home, haha - I am Child - but I am Interested) Is it affected by the season of the year, or the time of day? Things like that?

[sparklekaz]

Dear Monty,

We are very fortunate here, to have two such as you and ace who are willing to share with us the benefit of your long experiences with I Ching and Astrology.

I ching is something that I have heard of, but have very little understanding of and how it works. So I find your explanation to be really interesting and helpful. I look forward to hearing more about it. Maybe some simple examples of questions, and how the reading reveals the answer. Also can the answers themselves be open to different interpretations depending on different factors?

Love and light
Kaz

[donq]

Mary Anne,

Remember about pendulum? The swing of a pendulum will change if the thought of the holder has changed. Something like that. :-)

Yes, it is affected by the season of the year and the time of day. But I really don't want to talk it. It's boring. Suffice to say that this time of the year, when the stars move to such and such positions, there are possibilities to have such and such events. It happened in the past, and would repeat it again and again.
(Huang ti) Nei Ching or The Emperor's Inner Canon (Yellow emperor classic of medicine) is based on I Ching, too. We already know Acupuncture which is based on the moving of the Chi (inner energy) during the day. At such and such hour of the day, it will move to such and such internal organ etc. Yes, it’s called biorhythm in the Western.
Let’s see this way, if I told you, “Mary Anne, don’t forget to bring your umbrella today” and it turned out that that day it really rained. There’s nothing so miracle in it, because I just knew that it was a rainy season. This is the very simplify about I Ching.

It’s ok, Mary Anne (about not try throwing coins at home). I honestly don’t want to convince anyone to try. As I said somewhere before, I’m glad if no one tried it. Because misinterpret it is more dangerous.

[donq]

Karen,

Ok, some simple question and answer here.
Once I used to challenge I Ching by asking this kind of question: "why on earth I Ching could give me some good advice?"
The following was the answer I got:

YOUTHFUL FOLLY has success.
It is not I who seek the young fool;
The young fool seeks me.
At the first oracle I inform him.
If he asks two or three times, it is importunity.
If he importunes, I give him no information.
Perseverance furthers.

P.S. Oh! I didn’t promise about this, ok? I will write about it more if only I have enough time. hahaha.

[sparklekaz]

Hi Monty,

That was a very good example and the answer was really clear.

I know your a busy man.. Just wanted you to know your appreciated.

Love and light
Kaz

[aceofcups]

HI Monty ..I will be interested in your insights on the I Ching.. I even have a set of the traditional Yarrow stalks, one of traditional methods but done in a beautiful long drawn out meditative mode, someplace on my shelves that were used as alternative method to throwing the three coins. I also have a alternative throwing the coins method which was created in a mathematical way that have same odds as using the yarrow stalks. My interest in Astrology is not as much into divination or fortune telling aspects. My main interests is in understanding how the energies lay a energetic foundational framework for our being in a psychological and spiritual way.

I am not into predictive, ie fortune telling or divinatory uses of astrology but understand them a bit. I can say the same about Tarot Symbolism, numerology, Enneagram studies etc. etc But I honor the I Ching when I have used it. I think that the Intention and the Connectedness of the person throwing the coins or cards etc are essential in getting the most authentic readings for oneself or others. Do you usually meditate before or while you throw the coins, Monty? To me the highest and deepest aspects of our being can be aligned with and should be attempted before and during throwing - seen it many times with people using the I Ching frivolously where "Folly" comes up in readings. (just saw MOnty's post about getting folly after i posted here )

To me I like to use divinity systems as a way to get Insight, when i do use them, which then can be explored for ourselves if it has any validity or use. Divination is part of a Journey for some, can hold great wisdom but is not a fixed destination.


Just went back and tried to reread some of earlier posts in this thread and seems you did answer some of my questions,, i just have hard time these days reading long posts on forum, eye issues..so thanks.

Peace
aceofcups

[donq]

Hi Ace,

Thank so much Ace, for giving me a chance to add this explanation.

Yes, divination should NOT be the purpose of consulting I Ching. Because, as I said somewhere on this thread, I Ching is a handbook of spirituality (inner growing).

As you already knew that I was a serious (radical) Buddhist when I was a young man, so I never believed in any kind of predicting the future. I only mean in the sense that it was not and should not be my spiritual goal. So, that time I studied I Ching as only a complementary practice to my spiritual (Buddhist) practice.
Anyway, there was a time when I had to come back to a normal life (marry, got a job, making money for my family) I found that I Ching also helped me on this part, too). I mean it also helped me more than spiritual part, but worldly part, too.
When I wrote my book on I Ching, I had to decide which group of readers should be my target group. And I thought those who already were into spirituality needed less help from I Ching than another group.
From my own experience, even someone got worldly success after consulting I Ching, he/she inevitably has been developing his/her spirituality more or less, too. And if they are still struggle with daily life (making money for their family), how could they have enough time on spending for their spirituality? So, if there's some handbook to help them on worldly part AND help them on spiritual part at the same time, it should be benefit them most.    
I really feel so sleepy now. Sorry for any typo and some not clearing point.

P.S. This was the second time tonight that I had to spring from my bed after I was going to take a nap. Hahaha.

[tribunalofmercy]

I am two-thirds of the way through a first reading of Richard Wilhelm's I Ching (your original link via wisdomportal)...I find this fascinating, and also funny that you mentioned the pendulum because I was first going to ask about the relevance but decided not to lol.

Now I see very little connection between I Ching and the pendulum; like I might see the difference between a very cheap toy and a very Expensive one...sort of. This gives me Much insight into the way of the east, in ways I have not seen before. And it makes Sense, the connection that we have always desired between the manifested "self" and the Divine, or the higher self, etc.

It is not like meditation (not trying to create fuzzy logic, haha) but there is a similarity to me because both seem to be Ways of opening up a channel to understanding the Higher...except I Ching seems to be like math, and science, while meditation is like...meditation. haha

Thank you for sharing, Monty


( I never realized I had Issues with my being female until I read about creative vs receptive, hahaha - but I know it means so much more than that)

I want to amend without changing my original words, Monty - I use the term "toy" but I do not think of a Toy the way many do...to me a "toy" is a Gift, many things we are given to Understand things better   I do not mean to cheapen what I Ching IS.

[donq]

Dear Mary Anne,

Yes, the word, “toy” is good, as far as spirituality is concerned.

Hexagram 1 and 2 (let’s call them number 1 and 2) is its core. I Ching teaches us to see the interplay of nature: there’s yin in yang and yang in yin. Everything is relative. It’s not really complete black but only less white etc. And vice versa.

You could see that after creative (no.1) reached its peak, it turns to be submissive (no.2). So, after someone has tried hard to create some important thing at the right time, and finally got it, he has to be aware of this inevitable changing into its opposite pole. After every Increasing (no 42), comes Decreasing (no.41) etc. The great lesson that I Ching give us is how to prepare for this interplay of nature. Until at some point, whether success or failure, it has no effect on us any more. Isn't that the great development of spirituality?  

Now, you could see what I mean when I said, “I’m glad if on one here is interested in it” because it means no one needs this toy. And that was the reason why I have stopped doing anything with it for a decade. :-)

[donq]

Let me give an example from Wilhelm's text. (I edited and shorten it).
In case of you want to create something and consult I Ching and got this number.

1. The Creative

THE CREATIVE works sublime success,
Furthering through perseverance.

When an individual draws this oracle, it means that success will come to him from the primal depths of the universe and that everything depends upon his seeking his happiness and that of others in one way only, that is, by perseverance in what is right.
The beginning of all things lies still in the beyond in the form of ideas that have yet to become real. But the Creative furthermore has power to lend form to these archetypes of ideas. This is indicated in the word success, and the process is represented by an image from nature: "The clouds pass and the rain does its work, and all individual beings flow into their forms."

The movement of heaven is full of power.
Thus the superior man* makes himself strong and untiring.
[*the superior man here means someone (us) who consult I Ching to get success especially in the spiritual way]


The development of the situation (if we got this number 1-The creative) will goes like this (six steps):

Nine at the beginning means:
Hidden dragon. Do not act.


Here this creative force is still hidden beneath the earth and therefore has
no effect. In terms of human affairs, this symbolizes someone (you who are consulting I Ching)who is still unrecognized. Nonetheless he remains true to himself. He does not allow himself to be influenced by outward success or failure, but confident in his strength, he bides his time. Hence it is wise for the man who consults the oracle and draws this line to wait in the calm strength of patience. The time will fulfill itself. One need not fear least strong will should not prevail; the main thing is not to expend one's powers prematurely in an attempt to obtain by force something for which the time is not yet ripe.


Dragon appearing in the field.
It furthers one to see the great man.

Here the effects of the light-giving power begin to manifest themselves. In terms of human affairs, this means that someone (you) makes his appearance in his chosen field of activity. As yet he has no commanding position but is still with his peers. However, what distinguishes him form the others is his seriousness of purpose, his unqualified reliability, and the influence he exerts on his environment with out conscious effort. Such a man is destined to gain great influence and to set the world in order. Therefore it is favorable to see him.

All day long someone (you) is creatively active.
At nightfall his mind is still beset with cares.
Danger. No blame.

A sphere of influence opens up for that person. His fame begins to spread. His inner power is adequate to the increased outer activity. There are all sorts of things to be done, and when others are at rest in the evening, plans and anxieties press in upon him. But danger lurks here at the place of transition from lowliness to the heights. Many a great man has been ruined because the masses flocked to him and swept him into their course. Ambition has destroyed his integrity. However, true greatness is not impaired by temptations. He who remains in touch with the time that is dawning, and with its demands is prudent enough to avoid all pitfalls, and remains blameless.


Wavering flight over the depths.
No blame.

A place of transition has been reached, and free choice can enter in. A twofold possibility is presented to that someone: he can soar to the heights and play an important part in the world, or he can withdraw into solitude and develop himself. He can go the way of the hero or that of the holy sage who seeks seclusion. There is no general law of his being. If the individual acts consistently and is true to himself, he will find the way that is appropriate for him. This way is right for him and without blame.


Flying dragon in the heavens.
It furthers one to see the great man.

Here that someone (you) has attained the sphere of the heavenly beings. His influence spreads and becomes visible. Everyone who sees him may count himself blessed.

Arrogant dragon will have cause to repent.

When a man seeks to climb so high that he loses touch with the rest of mankind, he becomes isolated, and this necessarily leads to failure. This line warns against titanic aspirations that exceed one's power. A precipitous fall would follow.

There appears a flight of dragons without heads.
Good fortune.

Here the whole hexagram (number 1) is in motion and changes into the hexagram (no.2) THE RECEPTIVE, whose character is devotion. The strength of the Creative and the mildness of the Receptive unite. Strength is indicated by the flight of dragons, mildness by the fact that their heads are hidden. This means that mildness in action joined to strength of decision brings good fortune.

Now you can see the development of creative situation. And see that, it has something to do with our inner development, spirituality. :-)

[tribunalofmercy]

I do see that - And thoughtful of you to explain it so well


As I read over this, I thought to myself: In life, it seems that a person might be faced with some choice at Each point – to become the creative, or to remain less? Then, to be patient and Wait for the ripened time, or to not be patient? Then, will he/she remain a person of integrity, or become influenced (and ruined) by the success? Become arrogant and isolated (from others, and/or from Himself as he was), or to keep humble even as he flies?


That, to me, was not the momentary confusion. In my experience, within each hexagram I have seen that if the One point is activated, then the others will follow in cause-and-effect, though the workings of the Universe are much more complex than that….”if A, then B, C, D, E and F”. Only, it seems we may activate Any point on the hexagram in our variance: “If B, then C, D, E, F and A” or, “If C, then A, F, E, D and B”. (again, that is a flat view of a single hexagram, so it does not explain the whole).


If I chose to believe in free will, I must believe that we have choice with Each point of decision. So I wondered how the I Ching would Know which to show when someone threw coins, or let fall the stalks…is it a prediction of future in some way?


I do not know what the “proper” words for these things are, but I see that our minds work in duality as it relates to the God Particle, which shows a thing as both a (manifested) particle and a (energy) wave at the same time. And I call the (energy) wave also a two-part thing, between the time something is Considered (wave potential) , and the time it becomes a Decision (wave actual), even before we have acted on it (and sometimes before we Know it).


So instead of predicting….when our mind is One with the I Ching (not that I will try it! No) and we are at Right Place to cast such a lot to know something, what it seems to be Doing is showing us, Ourselves?



Hmmm, Now I wonder if our intent works the same way with the selection of Tarot card?

[donq]

You talked about the heart of I Ching, Mary Anne. Are you sure you’ve never studied it before?
As Ace already gave a hint above about meditate before throwing the coins for getting/communicating with the highest and deepest aspects of our being.
Yes, there are so many (how to call it in English?) point of views, maybe. Every truth depends on our POV. How we approach “cause-and-effect:” law of universe.
And yes, if someone got the heart of I Ching like you, she can read I Ching by random. No need to consult it to get such and such hexagram (number). Every number is the great lesson to study.
However, don’t forget something: those kind of (philosophical) speculation brings us to nowhere, doesn’t it. It’s just for entertaining of our thought and could not benefit for our inner development.
P.S. Again, I was going to sleep and was on my bead when I tried to reply our post via my android device without success. So, I had to spring from my bed for the third time. Hahaha
P.P.S. Ok, if there’s other post, I will be back after I woke up, ok. hahaha

[aceofcups]

Monty,

just want to clarify about divination.. don't think I clearly defined it before for myself.. I do think divination can be useful on daily life issues besides its more deeper aspects of spiritual study also. To me it is about one's approach and how ones takes what the divination is sharing. Some people using divinatory tools may use it "incorrectly" ( not sure if right term) making it counterproductive and only lead to more karmic circumstances by blindly believing. Just my opinion.

As we both agreed meditation as part of process is very powerful addition or almost essential at times. But some people, may need to learn that insight is not the same as blindly accepting what the reading or divinity outcomes has rendered. To me Insight means one is given a meaningful insight on what the energies are at a specific time - hopefully from ones higher self.

The real work is also to meditate on the answer and discern what it is trying to impart. It is a meditative fluid answer not totally fixed. That is reason I use the term "giving insight" instead of fortune telling.


just clarification

peace
aceofcups

[donq]

I understand, Ace and totally agree with you.

Maybe, just because I earn my living as a writer, I have a bad habit by always thinking about my readers. I mean, sometimes I wrote for someone who might read my post. So, I have to skip some point that, say, you and I already agree.

Yes, sometimes, it might look like I overlook “our” points, and I have to apologize.

Sometimes I wonder, we already think the same and already agree in so many things, why on earth we have to talk about it, then? hahaha

[aceofcups]

as you say haha... Monty even thought i had put your name on top of last post it was as much for myself in writing it as for "anybody" else who read it for clarification on my part about how I felt about divination,, I already figured you felt similar.. haha
ace.