When Is It Okay To Lie?

[subsidinginsanity]

If we accept spirit as truth then to lie is the equivalent of rejecting spirit. In most cases we can say that it's best to tell the truth, but when, if ever, is it okay to lie? Are social "white" lies okay? How about lying on taxes, or lying to not hurt somebody's feelings?

I once cared for a demented women who's son had died tragically some years back. Everyday she would ask the staff where her son was. We learned quickly that when we told her the truth she relived all the horror and sorrow like it had just happened. It wasn't long before we were all lying to her like it was the best thing to do.

I tend to think that in an imperfect world no one rule can ever be appropriate all the time. So, which is it? Should we never lie? Are there times when we should? What are the exceptions?

[gruntal]

This might be a dumb example but it the best I have and I have had 50 years to think it over! When the Los Angeles Railways trolleycar system finally quit the remaining streetcars were stored in Vernon Yard for eventual resale to other agencies. "Sourvener hunters" were stealing things like the builders plates and gongs ect. A local club I belonged to announced that they would actively help to proscecute any member apprehended in these streetcar robberies and would also immediately dispel said member from the organization.

Well it happened but I remember a semi-private discussion between someone and the elected president of the club. "Why did we pick on poor Steve?" "He didn't do anything a lot of the others did." The answere was: "the difference is he got caught".

Now those theiving railfans are grown up and helping the railroad museums by voluntering time and their own money. The things they stole er saved may be very much sought after by legitament museums and historical societies. But we are plauged by copper thieves who gain a few hundred dollars by snipping off electrical wires off the locomotives. It may cost us THOUSANDS of dollars to repair the damage if we need to go into the traction motors to replace those wires if can't do a simple splice.

So there is a difference in some things. You may never live long enough to be vindicated. If you don't know the difference I guess you shouldn't even try.

[Ishtahota]

It is not OK. anytime. When we become fully awakened we will not be able to lie, because people will know. If you can not tell the truth keep you mouth shut.

[themaster]

Aug 13, 2012 10:51:03 GMT subsidinginsanity said:

When Is It Okay To Lie?

It's always "okay" to lie.. the fact remains there's NO lies.. ever.. If you tell someone your going to meet them at 31st and Randolph in a 1/2 hour.. and you don't.. you actually still met them there..

All things are created in consciousness, every path is taken.. so even when you tell a so called "lie" to your reality.. it is actually real..

Aug 13, 2012 10:51:03 GMT subsidinginsanity said:

If we accept spirit as truth then to lie is the equivalent of rejecting spirit. In most cases we can say that it's best to tell the truth, but when, if ever, is it okay to lie?

It's okay to lie to people who insist on you validating their truth..

If a person says to you (like your mom) "believe in jesus" or I won't love/accept you..

It's okay as a path of least resistance to say.. yes, mom I believe in jesus.. (and ahh, yes there's a yeshua) lol

This doesn't mean you can't deny her faith (which technically isn't correct.. because all things exist) but the idea is if pushy people come up to you and say.. "believe this or listen to me or ELSE!" just give them a white lie..

This information brought to you by a abraham channel I heard once.. very well done.. abraham never said "white lie" but that is my re-translation.. or aka I agree with them

Aug 13, 2012 10:51:03 GMT subsidinginsanity said:

How about lying on taxes, or lying to not hurt somebody's feelings?

Dude! If god finds out you lied on your taxes he's gonna be pissed! lol

All crap.. god loves you "unconditionally" do you know the definition of "unconditional love"..?? it has no conditions.. zip, zilch.. it doesn't say.. I won't love you if you kill a cat or don't pay your taxes or lie to everyone.. it's "unconditional"

When it comes to feelings I would suggest "not" lying (unless you don't want negative feedback) we lie to people so we don't trigger them.. but if you want to help them get happier/free'r.. trigger the f**k out of them!

We all need to stop dancing on "tippy toes" around each other.. and so triggering them with "no hurt feelings" is a good way.. each time you trigger someone.. you give them a chance or maybe (small chance) depends to examine the negative belief system your triggering..

But you can't do it wrong! So choose the way you prefer.. don't trigger them if you want to!

Aug 13, 2012 10:51:03 GMT subsidinginsanity said:

I tend to think that in an imperfect world no one rule can ever be appropriate all the time. So, which is it? Should we never lie? Are there times when we should? What are the exceptions?

There are "no exceptions" you choose it's your reality.. and remember you can't really tell a lie.. and white lies are great for keeping pushy people from bothering you.. aka like "not hurting feelings"

Stop making this into a logical thing.. you can't do it wrong! and that's all there is

Also I like to say sometimes.. the world is perfectly created in imperfection..

Aug 14, 2012 1:13:31 GMT Ishtahota said:

It is not OK. anytime. When we become fully awakened we will not be able to lie, because people will know. If you can not tell the truth keep you mouth shut.

You so got it wrong dude.. ;D

Just remember though.. "you can't do it wrong!"

[sparklekaz]

Dear subsiding,

A great question, and one that has got you some varied responses as I thought it would.

It is always interesting to see other people's perspectives. But I am with Ishta here, I don't believe lying is justifiable under any circumstances. Though I would be lying if I said, I have never been guilty of a white lie myself.

Whenever I have not been truthful, the repercussions have always shown me that it is not the right thing to do. As my mum used to say, 'the truth will always come out'. It rises to the surface, no matter how long it takes.

A lie is a lie, regardless of what your reality is. Is it ok to go along with a sick persons delusion to not upset them? Well is it ok to keep prolonging it? I don't believe it is. When something is too painful to face, just because it is buried deeply, doesn't mean that it is not still there. The sick person on some level realises this, hence why they are still sick. Getting better, healing can only happen when something is faced and then and only then can the healing process begin. This is just my opinion.

Telling a white lie to spare someones feelings. That to me is a short term solution, and does not make the problem go away. If someone respected and valued my opinion enough to ask me something, be it "do I look big in this dress" or "what do you think of my hair". If I couldn't say anything nice about it I would simply say "It's not that I like it that is important, but that YOU do!" Is that lying? If the person looks awful in the dress. No, I don't think so, because it might look awful to me, but great to someone else. That is a personal opinion thing. So as long as the friend is happy with her dress and hair, who am I to say different.

If someone asked me if I was aware of their partner being unfaithful or behaving inappropriately I would say I don't know. Because firstly we cannot be 100 percent certain, unless literally catching someone 'in the act'. If I had done that, and was then asked, I would answer honestly. I know people will say, that we don't have the right to interfere or be part of something that would be devastating or have life changing consequences for another. But again, if we are asked and are absolutely certain, do we have the right to withhold the truth, knowing that the person is living a lie and already have their own suspicions.

I do know of people who have spoken the truth when asked and not liked the answer. They may indeed even blame the person for their relationship breaking up. Why did you tell me they said, I would rather have not known. Well then in that case, why did they ask? All actions have consequences. Still I know this is a very difficult call, and I am sure there will be many who will say that under certain circumstances telling a lie is justifiable.

I can only speak for myself, but I would rather be hurt by the truth then lied too.

Love and light
Kaz

[gruntal]

I know I already gave one dumb example but I couldn't pass without adding one more dumb addedum:

Sometimes me doctors make comments as to how my (possible) use of methathedemines might have contributed to my congestive heart failure. My response : " ------------------------------------------------------ ".

I am tempted to say: "An honest answere would only lead to me vindication and your condemnation to have made the assumption in the first place." "So I will ignore the question and spare you the humiliation of ever asking it".

Sometimes telling the truth is more then you are capable of when you know the others are "fishing" for the answere THEY want.
I guess I am not spiritually advanced enough to assume the responsibility of pointing out how rediculous and innapropriate some questions are. At some level I feel responsible for their innapropriate behavior as if it was my fault. So I just don't say or do anything. That probably is a little white lie but what can I do about it?

[cyberangel]

When is it okay to Lie?

At the end of the day you can lie to the whole world if you wish but the fact remains that you can’t lie to yourself, and that is what really counts. A lie is a lie no matter how big or small it is, it’s how YOU feel about yourself after...that’s the difference.

Myself personally, I think it’s ok to lie to someone, if I know that the truth will hurt them more and serve no purpose but to expose them to pain, then 'I' feel ok with lying.

[sparklekaz]

I'm back again too.. a sign of a good post.

Lorraine, I totally agree with you that we can lie to the world but not to ourselves. Many can live with deceiving others, but cannot live with deceiving themselves. But when its about our lives, then that is our call isn't it, we have to accept the repercussions of a lie.

I personally am not comfortable about lying to someone to 'spare their feelings'. Because that means I am making a judgment call, on their behalf. I understand that in the case of someone who does not have their full faculties and needs a advocate or guardian to 'help' make decisions for them, because they simply need the help or cannot do it for themselves. But, even in those cases, an application has to be made to the court for it. Power of attorney it is called, and the courts have to be satisfied that the person is making the application for all the right reasons and is applicable.

For a family member, friend or relative to decide what someone else should or shouldn't know, scares me. It is dis-empowering. Non of us can know for sure how someone will react. We 'imagine' how we would react, and assume, that is how 'they' would react. People often use the phrase 'it was for their own good' to justify taking over and making decisions for someone else.

Personally I would hate it. I would also never do it to someone else. Also don't be fooled. People do know when they are being lied too, especially if its by someone they have known all their life or for a long time. They can read us like a book. How hurtful must that be and how frightening. Again, the truth may not always be easy to digest, but at least we know what we are dealing with. Rather then imagining all kinds of things.

I broached the subject of 'power of attorney' once to my mum when she was suffering from steroid poisoning, which cause psychosis. It was temporary thank goodness but it could have been permanent. I asked her if she wanted me to do this for her, and she said No. She was aware of what was happening to her, and I feel having control over her own life and decisions was what helped her get through it. Take away someones autonomy over their own lives, and what are they left with. Something to think about!!

Love and light
Kaz

[cyberangel]

I agree Karen with all you have said about taking someone’s decisions away from them and I would never feel comfortable doing that, even WITH their permission! It is hard enough making decisions for myself at the best of times, but I believe the question was about lying in general. If someone asked me to make a decision for them then that is a whole different story.

Once again I can only reiterate what I said earlier about how one would feel themselves if they decide to lie or not. I think all of us who ask another’s opinion know that there is a 50/50 risk of being lied to, so I believe that we except that on a conscious, if not subconscious level. I also agree with you about it being a very good post – certainly it makes one think about lies in different conditions and scenarios

Love & Light

[subsidinginsanity]

So many good replies. They all seem true as I read them and yet they are so different. The way I see it we lie to either make another feel good or to get out of undesirable consequences. In the first scenario it seems like a benevolent thing to do but what do we sacrifice by doing it? I'm afraid I'm not spiritually advanced enough to really answer that question. In the second scenario it's simply a matter of taking responsibility for the way we live our lives, so I suppose the answer is more clear.

There's a side of me that thinks it's all about intention. In the health care field we take a vow to do no harm. Does that mean we lie to make others feel good? Probably not. I tend to agree with ishtahota in this regard that it may be better to simply keep your mouth shut. The truth is we don't owe anybody an explanation. A simple answer such as "I'm not going to discuss it." May be the best solution.

themaster, very interesting post. As an ACIM student I believe that nothing we do here on earth affects us spiritually, but our actions and thoughts can affect how quickly we wake up and realize that we are spirit. In general it seems as though loving thoughts bring us more peace and happiness while the opposite thoughts increase our suffering. Lying is after all a denial of the truth so perhaps it's not what a truth seeker should do. I like your idea though that lying is impossible. I have a feeling that when we wake up we understand that none of the things we thought happened here on earth ever really happened at all.

Great posts everybody. Keep them coming.

[clara927]

Hello Subsiding,
What of it's a situation where you continually tell certain people the truth, and they use whatever information you give them to criticize you and ultimately sabotage you? Today I lied to my parents and told them I was going to church when I really went to sing for a band leader. I feel terrible about it, but I also know that I the past when I've told them any worthwhile endeavor I wanted pursue they've always found away to sabotage it... I don't want my parents to know everything about everything I'm doing. I don't like feeling invaded of controlled. And they've always undermined and belittled me every time I would open up to them. It sounds like I'm paranoid, but happens over and over again. Maybe it's a misplaced sense of wanting to protect me, but hey don't respect me or even bother to know the person that I am nor do they appreciate that I have standards for myself. Ok I'm pretty much rambling. I'm just in a difficult situation where somehow I felt the need to lie. Could there have been an alternative to lying in this situation? What would you have done?

[subsidinginsanity]

Hi, clara927. I'm afraid I don't know enough of the details. If you are very young then it's probably best to listen to your parents. They are after all the ones who provide and care for you. A great social life means little when there is trouble at home. Despite appearances they usually want what's best for you.

You might try just telling them the truth and see where it goes. I've done karaoke a bit. It can be great fun and a great way to meet people. You could try to sell them on the reasons why you want to do it. If they are concerned that you want to make it a career then just tell them it's what you like to do for fun.

The problem with lying to your parents is that your chances of getting away with it are slim at best. After all you live with them. Talk about the ultimate nosy roommates. Again I don't really know much about your situation, but it's probably best to work on communication. The way something is presented oftentimes means more than what is actually said. I hope things improve.

[clara927]

Hello subsiding,
I wrote this when I was very frustrated so its provably a bit off topic. Im sorry about that. I understand you don't have enough information, but thank you for your advice. I'm not very young btw but I see what you're trying to say. I'm still not sure what I'm going to do but thank you anyway for your help.

[sparklekaz]

Dear Clara,

I do feel for you. I think this is not so much about lying, as feeling unable to be open about what you are doing. I would be lying if I said I had never told my parents I was doing one thing and did another because I didn't think they would approve. The fact you are 24 and have to account for your every movement to your parents, must be difficult. I guess it is the price you pay for the privilege of still living at home and to some extent being financially dependent on and supported by your parents.

Do you have to tell them where you are going, whenever you leave the house? Could you not just say that you are going out and just leave it at that? Or, if asked just keep it vague and say you are going to see some friends.

The problem with lying is that one lie often leads to another. For instance, you went to audition to sing with a band. If you are successful and are invited to join them. Are you going to tell your parents or pretend you are doing something else? The point is that ultimately, you will have to tell them the truth. If they then discover you have been lying about what you are doing, they will feel you are not to be trusted. Losing trust is one of the hardest if not hardest thing to win back Clara. Better to be up front from the start then have them doubt your word about everything from then onward.

It is so hard to maintain personal boundaries when you are a adult living at home. Parents still see their adult children as being children and have a difficult time accepting them as adults in their own right. Probably because to some degree they are still providing the same kind of support as they did when they were kids. Food, a roof over your head and occasional money handouts when you have no money. It is not until you actually leave home that they will start to respect you as a person in your own right. This doesn't mean they don't love you. Quite the contrary, its because they care that they want to know what you are doing.

My advice would be to you Clara, next time you are doing anything connected to your singing, be honest. Don't get involved in any heated exchanges. If they make a comment about you wasting your time or that you should be looking for a job, just ignore it. It's hard to have an argument with someone who doesn't answer back isn't it.

Don't get into the habit of not being truthful to avoid confrontation or hearing things that you don't like. That's a difficult road to go down, and will create problems for you in later life with other people. Sometimes we just have to accept that other people don't think as we do and are entitled to an opinion. Especially parents when we live at home. But take heart. It will not always be like this.

Love and light
Kaz

[clara927]

Hello Kaz,
I was going give a long response with all of the reasons why I couldn't do what you suggested, in detail. But I decided against it, I'm just going to tell the truth when they ask and stand firm and confident no matter what they say or do. Maybe with if I'm confident enough, it will somehow disarm them and prevent them from doing anything to stop me

Thank you Kaz