Should we stop there?

[donq]

Long time ago, I tried to win's a girl heart, but failed. Should I stop there?
Well, I didn't.
So, I married (twice) and divorced (twice).
Should I stop there?

It's said that, as an inventor, Edison made 1,000 unsuccessful attempts at inventing the light bulb. When a reporter asked, "How did it feel to fail 1,000 times?" Edison replied, "I didn’t fail 1,000 times. The light bulb was an invention with 1,000 steps."
Whether the story was true or not,  if he really stopped there, we might still have to light the candles and lamps nowadays.

Sometimes, it seems we should never stop there, stop trying, but also sometimes we have to stop (for example, my case; not because I don't believe in third time's the charm but it's just inevitable as I cannot afford to pay for any alimony for my future third wife any more. ). Or another obvious is about stop doing drug (drug addict), gambling, bad things etc. for our own sake, not for anyone else.

It's true that "time and tide wait for no man" but again it's also true that slow and steady wins the race (Rome wasn't built in a day; slowly but surely).
So, how do we know which time is which?

Someones said doing good things are hard, but if you are spiritual persons, you would know that doing bad things are even harder. Believe me, I tried to do bad things every once in a while but hardly succeeded. For example, I found in the hard way that what J.D. Salinger said was so true. “Don't ever tell anybody anything. If you do, you start missing everybody” Well, I've still missed everybody as I never succeeded to lie, even I tried so hard to do so.

But should I stop there?

[mojomojo]

Hello Donq,
from my point of view there is never a time to stop trying, but if one keeps playing the same hand. one can not expect different results.
The world today is not spiritually inclined, this sweep of new age philosophy is nothing more than spiritual commercialism, which only runs skin deep, a hobby, an identity.
People today do not respect a spiritual man/woman, they are seen as weak, people do not respect a humble person, people do not respect someone who is of meager means.


I once watched a game show, three couples, the female was locked in a cage underwater, her male partner had to swim down , unlock the cage and rescue her.
The first two succeeded, the third could not hold his breath long enough and left her there, when she was brought back to the surface, she kept repeating, "you left me there".
This was only a game, but I bet my last dollar, that relationship ended that night.

In my opinion, spiritual ways, do not help one to survive in this world, spiritual practices strip away the ego and make one passive, vulnerable to the ways of others, whose only intention is to manipulate.

[donq]

Hi Robert,

Thanks for your post.

I do like what you said, "In my opinion, spiritual ways do not help one to survive in this world, spiritual practices strip away the ego and make one passive, vulnerable to the ways of others, whose only intention is to manipulate."
So agree!

I was so lucky, more or less, as I was not the one who asked for divorce both times. In this aspect, I did what I had to do. I had no other choice. I mean I could not stop that. But if it were me, would I feel regret today?
And how about any husband or wife who is thinking about divorce? Should he/she stop there or never stop trying? And if they really succeeded in their divorces, would they be regret in the future?
The Buddha said that one gets (mental) sufferings because he doesn't want what he got and/or he doesn't get what he wanted.
So, it seems, if only we could accept anything we got and stop trying to want what we didn't get, would be the best way out? But again, the world will label us as losers, right?
P.S.  That game show reminded me of another opposite game, Dunk tank girl. Instead of trying to save a girl, a player throws a ball to hit the bullseye so that the girl's seat would collapse and dunk her into the tank. I never dared to play that game in my life as I always feel sorry for her. But frankly speaking, I could not help but smiling when I saw someone playing that game and hit the bullseye. Yes, in this aspect, I'm still a bad spiritual person.

[sparklekaz]

Hi Monty,

A very good post, in which you raise an interesting question. When should we stop. There seems to be two schools of thought on this. One, is that no matter what, we should never give up. Two, that there comes a point, when we must give up. Robert said in his reply, "In my opinion, spiritual ways do not help one to survive in this world, spiritual practices strip away the ego and make one passive, vulnerable to the ways of others, whose only intention is to manipulate". It seems to me that we are missing something in our spiritual teachings. Are we misunderstanding the purpose, of what are seen as spiritual traits. Bear with me on this as I try to explain what I mean.

Having empathy and compassion, is not just a quality found in 'spiritual people', but can be found in all people. It is there to enhance our understanding of a person or situation. I don't think it is there to ensure we allow others to abuse us because we perceive they know no better. This is something I have struggled with a lot. How long do we allow ourselves to be taken advantage of? Theodore Eckhart says in his book The Soul Is Returning Home, that "Helping others take advantage of your giving nature enables them in their greed, and this hurts, rather than helps them." In our desire to live a spiritual life by embodying spiritual qualities, I think we forget this most important lesson. And not only are we hurting those we enable, we are also hurting ourselves.

There is no way of knowing how much is too much, as people vary in what they can tolerate. And in how long it takes for them to learn what they need to learn from a situation before moving forward. And moving forward cannot happen can it, unless all parties involved are willing to grow. In our spiritual ego, do we think that we are responsible for another's path? Or is it our job to save them? And maybe for those who believe they should not give up on a relationship, if they were honest, do not do it so much as for other person's sake, as they claim; But for their own sakes, because deep down, it is they who are not ready, rather then they have had enough of being taken advantage of. All this requires a lots of soul searching and self honesty.

It's clear to me that many, including myself find it easy to be spiritual, but harder to understand what it truly means. We are still emotionally and spiritually immature. We claim to understand other people, but hardly know ourselves. We are still led by the noses by our emotional attachments to a person or situation. We still judge others and we still have expectations. Turning the other cheek, doesn't mean overlooking, but forgiving and its ok to move on. But yet we still struggle to give ourselves permission to do so. I wonder why that is?

Great post Monty, thank you for sharing.

Love and light
Kaz

[donq]

Hi Karen,

I've just finished reading another post of your on Robert's thread, about that man who snarled at you. His manner was contrary to his well dress. Besides, you were a woman. And it turned out it was you who acted like a real gentleman.
What made you stop and didn't say anything back to that (egotistic) man?
As for spiritual aspect, we know ( a lot) about "turning the other cheek" or "don't accept the fire someone giving to you as it will burn yourself, not them". But let's say about the worldly act. What a benefit you got from stopping? If we let someone bully us once and didn't do anything, there is a big chance that they will do that in the future. But again, starting with arguing might end with fighting, or even a crime, right? And it makes us much more addict to fighting/arguing, doesn't it?

I like what you said, "Spiritual practice I think helps us to discern wisely, which battles are worth fighting, and which ones are worth just walking away from".
So, in the worldly aspect, we spoiled someone (by letting them bully/abuse/take advantage of us), but in the spiritual aspect, we battle only with ourselves. If we could walk away (from those shallow and not worth fighting scenes) then it means we really won the battle, won ourselves.
And this brings us back to your question:
"It seems to me that we are missing something in our  spiritual teachings. Are we misunderstanding the purpose, of what are seen as spiritual traits?"
Very very good question!

Maybe, I believe, the very answer was in what you said"
"And maybe for those who believe they should not give up on a relationship, if they were honest, do not do it so much as for other person's sake, as they claim; But for their own sakes, because deep down, it is they who are not ready, rather then they have had enough of being taken advantage of. All this requires a lots of soul searching and self honesty."

If we want to stop doing something, we have to honestly search deep down in our selves: why we have to stop or why we have to continue. And, as you said it so well, don't use others as our excuses. What would happened if you wanted to educate that man who snarled at you so that he might knew himself and behave better? Disaster, right? It would only end up with more arguing. But sure, if after your apologizing and the man still didn't stop, you should do something much more than that (even walking from there), right?
We read a lot about the good persons let bad persons abuse them. The Buddha did nothing when a woman claimed that she got pregnant because of him, neither did he do anything when someone tried to kill him. It turned out that those of his sidekicks (angels etc.) had to do a lot of work to help his situations in stead. What was the Buddha's secret? Sure, we have no sidekicks to help us like him. Then what are our alternatives?

Thanks Karen. You post really made me think so hard.

 
 


 
 

 
 

 

[mojomojo]

May I ask, who said to turn the other cheek is the way to go, and why do you believe them?

Then be honest and ask yourself how you felt, as you did nothing and walked away.

Would you have felt better if you had taught that person a lesson.

There is a fine line here, do we use spirituality to hide our lack of guts, is spirituality a cop out for weak people.

Last question, who benefits from a passive population.

[donq]

Hi Robert,

Lucky that we've known each other so well or I might not dare to reply your last post.

You asked, "who said to turn the other cheek is the way to go".
Come on, this is a spiritual forum. Everyone already knew who said that, right?

Your next question was so interesting, "and why do you believe them?"
I could only speak from my personal (trial and error) experiences. I think what Karen replied on another thread of yours was already a good example (about being a doormat). If she started (or told her partner), sure, it would never stop there and no way it could end well. At least, her state of mind would be so bad all that day.

There was a big news here many years ago. A famous female writer (70 y/o) stopped her car to warn a few teenagers about something on the roadside. She really meant well. But one of them shot her dead on the spot. Come on, she was an old lady and a big writer, she knew so well how to use her words. But, alas....
Let's exaggerate a bit here. What if a man tried to kill me once (but failed), what would I do? Sure, I might succeed to be able to do nothing. I might forgive him (for trying to kill me) and never told a police, but if he still keep doing that, well, it will be another story. I should do something to prevent myself for sure.

So, why do I believe about  turning the other cheek? I believe it as a metaphorical meaning, not literal one. It meant to show that the old believe (an eye for an eye, and a tooth for a tooth) was not right. What would happen if someone slap our right cheeks and we really slap their right cheeks back (for vengeance)? It should never stop there, right? From cheek slapping might turn out to be fighting and/or even killing.
As for its spiritual meaning, let me give an example. If my spiritual practice has come to the point that I really had no self and was not afraid even of death, then, why would I care if something just only slap my right cheek?

Well, I'm still not there, not that good. lol
So, if someone literally slapped my right cheek, I still could fight or flight (or calling a police etc.).
But, on the deepest and final analysis, we could see that there could not be anything good from that. Did I want to slap that man's cheek for vengeance? That's the real question. If I'm sure it's not about vengeance but about my right to protect myself (and even someone else in the future), then, I must choose another way. For example, walking away or calling a police.
From spiritual point of view, it still might be useless. After I really called a police and the man was locked up or was fined, he must be so angry and would come back to take revenge on me fro sure, right?

You asked, "There is a fine line here, do we use spirituality to hide our lack of guts, is spirituality a cop out for weak people.
Last question, who benefits from a passive population."
Don't foget that normal people have only two choices to act: fight or flight. But somehow, spiritual persons have much more choice than that. Did that make him a passive/weak person? Maybe on the outside. The point is could he (a spritual person) be able to overcome himself, overcome his urge to fight and/or flight? We see so many (normal) people could not stop their urges of wanting to fight or their fears of wanting to flight. Just walking away from the scenarios seems to be impossible for them. They might want to stop fighting and walking away but could not do that as they could not overcome themselves.

But, as you asked, spirituality does hide our lack of guts? In other words, does spirituality do hide our weakness?
And would we felt better if we taught that person a lesson?
My answer is yes. But again, who doesn't want to teach other person a lesson? Everyone (always) wants to do that, right? How to stop ourselves from wanting to teach others should be a real question for us as spiritual persons. The more important question is if we still could not teach ourselves lessons, how could we teach others a lesson?

Doing the right thing is really right? That always is the real and deep spiritual question. I've seen squirrel walking outside my windows every day. He went out to find his fruit as it was so hard to find around here. If, with my sympathy and compassion, I put some fruits from my fridge, says, a banana on his way outside my window; was I doing the right thing? It seemed to be like that...
But did I ever consider about so many cats around here?
 
P.S. I wrote this without stopping. Sorry for any errors. 

[sparklekaz]

Hi Robert,

Here is my take on the questions you've asked.

You said "Who said, turn the other cheek". I was taught at Sunday School, that it was Jesus who said this at his sermon on the mount. As you probably know, its a metaphor, for not responding in kind. Turning the other cheek means not to return insult for insult in retaliation, which is what most people expect and how worldly people act. Responding to hatred with love just might grab someone's attention and afford us a chance to show them a better way of being. There is evidence to suggest that responding with patience and love, can get you further then anger. I've seen it diffuse many arguments. It is not a sign of weakness, but of self control.

You said "Then be honest and ask yourself how you felt, as you did nothing and walked away." As I waked away from my angry man. I felt hurt, confused, and unable to understand his strong reaction. It was only afterwards as I thought of it more, I felt annoyed, angry, how dare he speak to me like that. My ego kicked in. But initially, I was more upset. But I do not regret, not saying or doing anything to make the situation worse. I still believe, to have brought myself down to his level would have been letting myself down, and making a isolated incident which no one else but the three of us, him, his wife and me were aware of, to the attention of everyone in the room. Creating an ugly scene. An onlooker, would not have seen us individually, but as a group behaving badly.

You said "Would you have felt better if you had taught that person a lesson." No I wouldn't, for the reasons given above.

You said "There is a fine line here, do we use spirituality to hide our lack of guts, is spirituality a cop out for weak people." Is this a question, or a statement? I would ask you, if you think reacting mindlessly to a situation, is a weakness or a strength? Is self control, a weakness or a strength? Sometimes we have no choice. If it is in defense of our families and our lives, then we would act. But I think it would be a mistake to suggest that aggressive action or retaliation is the only way in which strength can be measured. As a man, do you believe that not retaliating in kind to aggressive behaviour is 'unmanly'. Would you model yourself on the rude and ignorant man who insulted you at the auction? For what it's worth, I know which of you I respect and admire the most. And it isn't him.

Love and light
Kaz

[mojomojo]

Hello Kaz and Donq,
you both raise many good points,
but your fundamental belief system, seems built on what someone else has said, and how can you be sure these people ever existed.
If you speak of Jesus, born of a virgin had twelve followers, died and rose again after three days, the same story is told for every spiritual person of importance since Isis in Egyptian times.
Some say it was the sun in the sky, the sun of God, gives everlasting life, because crops grow.
The sun of God walks twelve steps across the sky and meets seth, sun set, night time, the prince of darkness, later changed to satan, night time was dangerous, carnivores hunted at night.

I'm slightly at a loss,why you consider, someone who uses violence for defense, as been out of control, most combat techniques require the exact opposite, total control.
If violence only makes things worse, then why was it the only reason peace came to Northern Ireland
Please do not feel as if Iàm attacking your beliefs, it has been very good conversing with you both.

[sparklekaz]

Hi Robert,

I honestly don't think its about dogma or biblical stories. These are just metaphors that are used as a way of conveying morals and principles to live by. We've talked a lot about what is considered a strength or a weakness. You've spent years trying different spiritual practices. I'm guessing, you have for quite a long time been quite happy with it. I know you've enjoyed exploring your spirituality. Meditation, healing and self growth. Its also really normal, and healthy to question. Question everything. Test it. But the feeling I'm getting for you now is one of anger. Its as if you feel you've been tricked or deceived. But who by?

Using a metaphor of the Onion, with its many layers. We keep on peeling. But we don't have too. You can stop anytime. You can be whoever you want to be. If you feel that a spiritual path is not right for you then please stop. There is nothing wrong in that. But I'm guessing you wont. We cannot stop, because this seeking, questioning, this sense of their being more, is as much a part of us as breathing. There is a saying isn't there, that once you have awoken, you cannot go back to sleep.

I do think that what your going through is really important. I think many go through something similar. I suggest you keep a journal, write down all your thoughts and feelings. Record your dreams if you can. But more importantly, Do Something Else! No meditating. Do Something creative, that really earths you. Maybe pottery or art. Play a musical instrument, or learn one. Express yourself in a new way. Try to get away from overthinking or trying to intellectualize how your feeling because their will come a point, when you'll feel like bursting. Find another outlet for it. Hence the art work in some form. The answers you seek will come through when your not thinking so hard. Creativity allows the divine flow to come through. Just a suggestion my friend.

Love and light
Kaz

[mojomojo]

Just to let you know Kaz,
your intuition is working fine.
I have always had a love for fine art, and spent much of my youth sketching and drawing, but was very average.
Having returned to art three months ago, with an absence of thirty years, all around me have been stunned at what is been produced, with cries of you should be doing this for a living, this coupled with the book that blew my mind a few years back, The Artists Way, had me wondering, and now your post, LOL.

But I would put your second last sentence a bit differently, divine flow allows the creativity to manifest, LOL.
Good luck Kaz, as always, it has been a pleasure.

[sparklekaz]

Hi Robert,

That sounds wonderful. Seems to me that you've followed your own intuition, in as much as you know what you need. Spirit works in many different ways. Clearly, your meant to be doing this. I would love to see your artwork on here sometimes. If you feel like sharing.

Please take care of yourself.

Love and light
Kaz

[donq]

Hi Robert,

Sorry for my late reply. I've just woke up and come here.
You said, "Please do not feel as if I' m attacking your beliefs, it has been very good conversing with you both."

I know, my friend, and that was why I replied your prior post. The point is, I've been doing this (being a poster on many spiritual forums) for more than 12 years. I used to argue hard on forums and found that it brought me )and those other posters) to nowhere. No way we could change anyone's opinion on any forum. No way! Then, why bother to argue in the first place?
As for us here, we are just sharing. You believe what you believe. So do I. And so does Karen. That's the real spiritual rule, is it not?

What I'm going to say might be oversaying as Karen already said it so well. Still, I'd like to add something from my part.

You asked, "but your fundamental belief system, seems built on what someone else has said, and how can you be sure these people ever existed."
Yes and no. I used to be a serious Buddhist, but at one point, I have been embraced any religion for more than two decades. In my saying, I would say that I respect any fundamental belief systems. Why? Because I found (from my personal experience) that before anyone reaches the point of having no rule, at least, he needs fundamental belief system. How could one build anything without its bad/fundamental? For example, there's a popular cliche about "spiritual but not religious". That's really impossible. It's like saying that "America but not the world". How could it be possible?
You talked about art. How could one be an impressionist, if he hasn't known so well about fundamental art first? Most spiritual newagers try to skip fundamental steps and failed so bad because they don't have their fundamental spirituality first. They change from this to that spirituality, like a shopping.

Back to your question, how could I know for sure if the Buddha really existed? I honestly don't. But why do millions (if not billions) of people around the world believe that for more than 2,500 years? The same in Jesus's case. Anyway, the real reason I chose to believe that the Buddha really existed because I already tried and tasted his core teachings. Besides, as I've said it above, it's safer to start from fundamental thing before you could progress. No shortcut about this.

You asked, "I'm slightly at a loss, why you consider, someone who uses violence for defense, as been out of control, most combat techniques require the exact opposite, total control."
I remember that you said something about tactics on another thread. What I was trying to say in this thread is about the best tactic which is up to individual person at the individual time. One time this tactic might work, the other time it might not.

Let's talk about Karen's situation (sorry Karen, for using you as a victim here). Let's forget about spiritual aspect for a while. If she decided to say something back to that angry man, what would happen? He would only talk much more , right? If listening to him just once already made Karen felt that bad, what would happen if she gave him a second chance to talk more and more? It would only made her much more upset, right? Much more talking might become bad arguing and everyone there would noticed. Then, so much embarrassment. Not to mention if he was really vicious man, he might physical harm Karen. It was possible, wasn't it?
From the spiritual aspect, Karen did what less and less (normal) people could do. In one hundred persons, how many could do what she did? Maybe just only a few, right? Everyone would start arguing with that man just because they didn't want to look weak, or because of their ego. but don't mistake a good spiritual person for a weak person (who lets anyone abuse her without doing anything to protect herself). From the outside it might look the same but it's very different form the inside. The weak person will be over overwhelmed by fear but Karen didn't. She even had her strength to apologize. So, the real important thing was her state of mind at that time. And it's she and only she could tell how she really felt at that time. No one else could know that.
Okay, as I'm a professional writer, let me rewrite this scene by mixing spiritual tactic with worldly tactic. (notice that it's possible only if spiritual one comes first). What if Karen said nothing, neither apologizing, standing firmly there, and looking back to that man, and even smiling? From worldly aspect she showed her strength; so does that from spiritual aspect (her self-control to react to that angry man), right? This tactic would make him felt more and more uncomfortable and nervous (even fear) for sure as he could not read what she was really going to do.
My point is that we could get the best tactic in each situation of life only if  we could handle our self-control so well. Then, and only then, whatever tactic we decide to use would bring us the best result, as that time. I repeat at that time. I mean, even this tactice worked well with that angry man this time, it doesn't mean it would work again next time, with him or with any other man.
Let me finish this post with some story I used to quote:

When an archer is shooting for nothing, he has all his skill.
If he shoots for a brass buckle, he is already nervous.
If he shoots for a prize of gold, he goes blind or sees two targets.
He is out of his mind!
His skill has not changed, but the prize divides him.
He cares.
He thinks more of winning than of shooting.
And the need to win drains him of power.
-Chuang Tzu

The moral of the story is that, the state of mind is the very key As for Karen, if she could handle her state of mind so well, she would choose the best tactic in that very situation (and she really did). I do admire her. But if she chose to argue with that man, I might not be impressed like this (even you thought it might be a sign of her weakness). On the contrary, if she didn't have her self-control, she might be like the archer who is shooting for some prize and goes blind.

Again, I've just woke up and wrote all this at once. Sorry for any errors. Now I really need a cup of coffee.

P.S. I really enjoy this talking with you and Karen here. Thanks both of you.          
 
 

[mojomojo]

Hello Donq,
I understand totally where you and Karen are coming from, and I respect you both, knowing you are both genuine seekers of truth.
You made a very good point, and explained it very well, there can never be one golden rule for every situation, we can not even say for sure the man would have retaliated again, if Karen had said something in defense.

Even in Christian religion, there are times when it is acceptable for violence to be used,though born Christian, I have never practiced to any great degree, but I have to say, I read a book on Christian spirituality a few years back, and from my own experiences, it was so pin point accurate, it was hard to dismiss.

The questions I ask, Iàm really asking my self, I have never taken anything at face value and never will, I guess this all started with my brush with entities, Iàm dumbfounded why I experience what I do, but fail to understand why, when one seems to have made progress along the spiritual path, still attracts things of negative nature, hence why everything is now been scrutinized.

At times its crazy, here`s an example, one day walking around a park in London, I got this horrible feeling, that something bad was about to happen, I used to get it as a kid, but had forgotten all about it. If you let this feeling overcome you, you could hit panic mode, its horrible. I started looking around me and then felt an energy rising, as if it was coming out of the ground, again horrible. Next two foxes darted into a bush and there was the last cry of whatever it was been killed, I have no explanation why this feeling arose before what is a perfectly normal part of natures cycle, all I can state is what I felt, but I have to state this energy rose.
Now compare it with this, before I start, Iàm not looking for sympathy here, after my brush with entities, I put everything on hold, I did not do as many have, and run to the security of organised religion, I just stopped practicing, until I figure things out.Last October my mother passed away, to be honest it was not as hard to face as i would have imagined, I made a point of not asking for a sign or proof of anything, I wanted to let everything play out naturally, if something spiritual was to happen, I had not asked for it. Two days before my mother passed, myself, my wife and my younger sister were sitting in the front room together, my younger sister knows nothing of spirituality. That night it was as if a protective dome had been placed over the whole house, spirits descended all over the house, it was a warm, golden wonderful experience, my younger sister claimed, she was been hugged, but that it was not scary, it lasted a short period of time and then vanished, I knew my mother had left that night, we spent the next two days watching her body physically wind down.

The difference here is one energy rose and the other descended, and both were very different in their nature, but people do not seem to believe this, I know, Iàm of sound mind, those around me know, Iàm of sound mind, so is everyone else mad, LOL.

[donq]

Hi Robert,

Very good point!

After seeing your lat post (it was really fascinating!, now I'm going to talk about what you might already say on your prior posts. But please notice that, this will be very different context.

I completely agree with you that there are two ways of spirituality: religion and non-religion. Why?
Let's compare spirituality with medicine. Someone need medicine but someone not. Spirituality and medicine are about healing our body and mind. And if we are not sick, then, why need any medicine? It's so normal. It's also worth to mention here that, more than 60-70% of the world population use alternative (holistic) medicine, not modern medicine.
I have met many people who didn't say anything about religion or spirituality, but they acted even better than some (if not many) spiritual persons I knew.
What does that mean? It means if your mind is already pure and complete, why need any spirituality in any form?

However, in the whole context, we cannot say that people don't need any spirituality? Why? The obvious answer is because everyone has mental suffering, more or less. Who doesn't, right? So everyone needs some spirituality to know oneself and to heal oneself, whether it would be a religion, spirituality and/or any natural state of mind practice etc.
Your experience sounded like the experiences of some mystics, especially the yaqui (Native Americans Indian shamans). To make a long short here,  it's some kind (natural) spiritual practice which has something to do with energy.

I used to be a radical Buddhist (after had been a fundamental Buddhist for a long time) as my last school of Buddhism was something so radical, like Zen Buddhism. Here's the story of my spiritual teacher's teacher:
Once he tried to teach dhamma to his audiences. He dipped a (small) statue of Buddha (which is the highest symbol of the Buddha) into a bucket full of water and said, "Why do you worship this junk lime and ask for its help? It could not even help itself?"
I didn't know how many people there got enlightenment but I did know what happened after that. Police invited him to a police station and almost charged him as a communist.

Though my understanding inside me hasn't changed but my saying outside has changed, more or less. Why? Because once I met a venerable monk (he was very famous here and wrote many great books on Buddhism) who told me that though all those symbols: temples, statues etc. are not the real Buddhism but, at least, they will last a bit longer than the core teachings of the Buddha. And the core could not survive without its bark, could it?
His words really engraved on my mind since then. And that was more than 30 years ago.