How Can Our Beliefs Make Us Better?

[tribunalofmercy]

Baangus brought up a good point recently – one that has been addressed before, over and over, in various forms, because we naturally seek Answers to the things that puzzle us in this life: everything we say, we think, may only be our Opinions because all these things are what We experience, not the experience of any other.



We have talked easily before about the how our ‘beliefs’ limit us; cause us to judge, to not walk in the shoes of others, to keep us Separate from one another in the ultimate walk toward Oneness…which may be a silly word because perhaps the idea of ‘oneness’ is not something we have Any idea of, really.



But how do our beliefs Strengthen us in this life? What Good are beliefs, since we seem to strongly build ourselves around them?

Are our beliefs in those things that are material, corporeal, things that are around us? Surely those beliefs color how we experience our lives….it would seem easier to carry with us, from situation to situation within our lives, those beliefs that are Unseen, immaterial, those things which cause us to be the Same person no matter our situation.



The one person may seem to experience much suffering, much hardship, much sadness in life. Perhaps they are given many burdens to carry, many ‘lacks’ that cause them to suffer. It has long been said that Suffering causes us to Grow, but how often does this suffering seem to go On and On, with no end or relief in sight? Another person may experience good fortune and when we cannot see it as fortune gained by either impressively benevolent works, or even nefarious means, we say that person Must have been good in a previous life and therefore they have good karma.



Is this a belief, that all positive or negative experiences or situations must be Explained in our minds some way – held out at arms’ length away from us, like thoughts or emotions, in order to See them better? Is it just our Nature, our Design, to try to look at things this way – and if so, does this keep us detached from the experience Itself, so as to bear it better while we are experiencing it?




What is it that causes suffering to end? Is it truly that our Circumstances change, or is it an internal change that brings the end to the misery we experience? Are we the Better for getting rid of ‘negative’ situations, negative people, negative experiences in our lives? Or could it be that we get rid of Ourselves in order to bring about real Change?


Is it a belief that we have to have Good experiences to be in a 'right place' in life?   On the other hand, is it a belief to revel in suffering, something to be proud of, like getting another notch in our belts?   Is there a way to be Content in every moment, even Joyful?    

[aceofcups]

Hi Mary Anne... let me add my metaphoric two cents ( that was cents not sense) to the question.

In the never ending dance of life, to me beliefs are like flexible energy blueprints and mental-emotional scaffolding. The plans and structures are needed at certain times. And they may be needed to change or altered as the building gets built and bigger taking in a grandeur view of reality.

At one time they to must be given up.  But giving them up before one is really ready.. may not be helpful at all at times.

Learning the true inner timing of each stage is part of growth process and discernment.

Inner architectural help is always available for those that seek it out.

ace

[tribunalofmercy]

I can see that, charlie You will always know more than I do, haha - kind of like my elder sister, for I know that no matter How old I get she will always be older (and wiser?) than I.


I want to know how people feel their current beliefs, or beliefs they have had, have made them Better....like with the idea of suffering. Perhaps I believe that if a person is suffering they must have done something Bad in a previous life and that karma has to happen now - how would I Act toward that person if that were my belief? How might I Treat such a person, if I believe they are only getting what is coming to them?


What if I believe that because they are suffering, they must be a very Strong person, and I must be weaker so that they can carry enough suffering for Both of us? How might I think of them then? And act?


What if I believe that the suffering of another is so that I can learn empathy, and help carry the burden With them? A lesson I must still learn....


Please do not limit yourself only to thinking of your beliefs when it comes to the suffering of others...what do you believe of Yourself? Of God? Of duty, or patriotism, as I know some do....how do all those beliefs Help?

[aceofcups]

Mary anne --- I'd rather be your older Brother Charles in this lifetime's costumes. thank you

Being that this is question and answer forum... here is my beliefs on beliefs-- One's beliefs, whatever they are, good or bad, truthful or illusion,, effects how one thinks or acts -- either consciously or unconsciously.

as with many paradoxes,,, they can be useful or not useful depending on circumstances, time and place within or outwardly in our consciousness.

Personally, my esoteric beliefs about certain things ( which I classify at times as my understandings) has very much laid the foundation to my life and how I live it.

ace

[tribunalofmercy]

you are Silly charlie I already Have an elder(eldest) sister who is both 'elder' and wiser than I, as she will Always be - you are my Friend, but always seem my elder in that you are more Knowledgeable about so many things than I...


Yes, I wonder if even our Beliefs about beliefs are only 'beliefs', and where might it end? Spirituality has to potential to end up translating as philosophical to so many of us because we Know we think outside of the Tangible, prove-able box that defines science, logic, etc.

I wonder...does even the idea that 'everyone has his/her own path/experience/understanding/belief' become a belief to us? I may Believe that, but how can I be Sure? In our desire to rid the world of dogmatic thinking, do we create our own dogmatic way of Insisting that our 'new thinking' be Right? (i.e., You Must Believe That There Is Not Just One Belief)


?  oh-oh; scratch that as musing; it takes away from the original Question.

[mojomojo]

I believe if one walks a spiritual path, and puts their beliefs into every day action, it can only benefit life.
If one has spiritual beliefs, and does not put them into action, it is then just intellectual knowledge, fit for debate and nothing more.
If one is very honest with their self, does the clearing out work, truthfully, and tames the ego mind, then the original belief, produces positive results.

If I type a group of words together to make a sentence, and someone becomes annoyed at that,
Is it the person who wrote the words, you are angry at,
Is it the words that were wrote, you are angry at,
Is it something buried deep inside that is activated by the words, that makes you anger.

Was I so naive to think, that the spiritual one's would be less prone to anger.

There are many words banded about with spirituality, love is a major one, while I have not attained the overall encompassing feeling of love for everyone and everything, I do hold a deep respect for every living person and thing on this planet, I would not knowingly cause harm to anyone or anything, this stems directly from my beliefs.
I will not anger at another's words, I gave up carrying other people's baggage a long time ago.

Spiritual belief put into action can only improve life.

Just my opinion,


Robert.

[baangus]

Jan 24, 2015 13:38:09 GMT tribunalofmercy said:

But how do our beliefs Strengthen us in this life? What Good are beliefs, since we seem to strongly build ourselves around them?

That's an interesting question. I suppose my answer is that my beliefs are insignificant and transitory. My growth journey the past decade and a half has had much to do with learning to discard beliefs and belief systems; I was caught up in a couple of cult-like organizations from my mid-20s to my early 40s. Rather, it is the eternal truths that have been revealed to me over the course of my life that are the source of my spiritual strength, and my wonder and awe for life. The knowledge and understanding I am an eternal soul in a benevolent universe makes it easy to simply be in the world and to embrace happy existence in each moment.

Personal beliefs are a hindrance to happiness in so many ways. Something I read the other day that sums up what I'm trying to say here: When the mind starts disappearing, true life starts appearing.

[donq]

Hi Mary Anne,

“I believe that it’s about…”
Somehow the above sentence is fair. The speaker wanted to express his opinion and is aware that it is not necessary to be the (absolute) truth. More than that, somehow the listeners might feel more comfortable to hear and don’t feel that they are forced to “believe” whatever the speaker said because it was just his opinion, his believe only.
Robert mentioned something that was so interesting, about words. When I lived in the forest, once I was bathing at a pool with a few (what to call in English?) Buddhist novices? You have to know that some parent sent their kids to be ordained in a temple as a Buddhist novice or a monk, just for a tradition, as they “believe” doing that could help them to go to heaven after death. But that was not what I want to tell here.
While those kids (about 13 years old) and I were bathing (sure, we still wore our traditional pajamas for bathing), some village girls (about 11-12 years old) passed by. One of them said, “Look! Brother chubby is bathing!” And all those girls giggled. That boy (Buddhist novice) was not shy but proudly grinned all the time. Soon after those girls were gone, another Buddhist novice came by (he was about 12 y/o) and said, “Look! Brother chubby is bathing!” This time our brother chubby didn’t grinned at all. He was so angry and ran to kick his friend. I laughed and thought what the difference? Why the very same sentence made very different result like that? What is said is less important than who said it? Really?

As for your questions, Mary Anne, I think (or I believe) it has something to do with conditioning. “Before” we are going to do something, we “believes” it’s the right thing to do or “After” we had done that very thing we found it was/is the right thing to do. Then, this conditioning reinforces our “make-believe” more and more. Here we have the brother of Schrödinger's cat, Pavlos’ dog.

As for learning about suffering of oneself, I was thinking about rose’s thorn. Do we need to get hurt from its thorn before we know that it could hurt us? Do we need real painful experience before we realize how painful it is?
I still think the real experience is the best teacher. Because it teaches us to know how the other might feel in the same situation (shoes). If someone never known what hunger is (as he always has enough money to buy anything to wants to eat) how could he know the painful feelings of the hungry people who have nothing to eat? Yes, so does about other’s suffering. And I “believe” this realization is about spiritual believe.

P.S. I’ve just finished making breakfast for my mother. Poor mom! She has to eat only what I could cook. And I can cook only a few things. :-)

[tribunalofmercy]

Robert, you said, "If one has spiritual beliefs, and does not put them into action, it is then just intellectual knowledge, fit for debate and nothing more." (I Still do not understand how to quote people, sigh) It reminded me of something I read recently about "Empirical knowledge" of aspirin...because we have long known to use aspirin and what for, but apparently no one knew how it Worked, until recently. I wonder if we do not first get an Empirical knowledge of something spiritual and have to Watch it for a long while, until we Understand it better.

We do the best we can, don't we? And I am not apologizing for the behavior of mankind so much as saying there are always things we can see and observe, but we do not yet have that deep knowledge of those things that will Change us, cause us to take those things into ourselves and make them Ours. Not everyone has the same knowledge of the same things, but I imagine this is why we begin to become spiritual but do not always let go of things that bother us, like anger.



Baangus, I can understand your thoughts about beliefs being insignificant and transitory; many of my previous beliefs I now call "irrelevant"; I can also see how your thinking has come from your time in cult-like groups, because you may have experienced the Dangers of blind faith in things/people?



Monty, I understand your story of the boy...sometimes two people can say the Same words to us but we accept one, and get mad at the Other - only because of our Feelings, our beliefs about the people who say the words. Do we like the person who is saying it? Or do we Dislike the person? (or neither) Because when we hear the words of someone we dislike we are not always hearing the Words, and not even the Intention, but our Feelings. This is a human thing, but it gets in our way....


The next time I watch the Christmas movie called "Its a Wonderful Life", when I hear a bell ring I will Not think an angel is getting its wings....I will think of Pavlov's dog. (Did you fix eggs for your Mom? Aren't you good at that?)

[mojomojo]

Yes, Mary Anne,
Very good point, at first knowledge must be acquired before it can be applied, and then time is involved in the practise of application,
Just different people at different stages of progress,
Very good point, only I do not like to think of people at different levels, rather on different paths or dealing with different issues.

Donq, your poem the other day comes to mind, sorry I can not remember the exact words, something about the ocean waves hitting two distant shores, the same water hitting two different shores, even though great distances separate them. My mother also has cancer at this moment, and although I only spent a short time with her, and was not as hands on as you are, in her care, we live in different countries I do understand how difficult it can be, and that it takes great inner strength. I think your spiritual teacher would be very proud of his student, and I wish you great spiritual strength.






Robert

[baangus]

Jan 25, 2015 2:54:15 GMT tribunalofmercy said:

Baangus, I can also see how your thinking has come from your time in cult-like groups, because you may have experienced the Dangers of blind faith in things/people?

Hi tribunalofmercy. That comes into play for me personally, yes, based on my own past history. More importantly though, I wanted to point out the difference between personal beliefs versus truth, and between external doctrine versus self-knowledge. Generally, we think of having beliefs in the same way we think of having hope or faith. Beliefs in that sense are a consciousness approach reflective of the human age that is now passing, the age that gave birth to the great religions.   

Knowledge and truth is about perceiving life, and the truth about life. Self-knowledge is the path. Everything one wishes to know is contained in the moment. Perception and awareness of Self is all that is required. 

[donq]

Hi Mary Anne,

Why I'm not surprised that you know I'm good at fixing eggs?
And it's true.:-)

[donq]

Hi Robert,

Thanks.
And I'm sorry about your mother. Let me say something in the traditional way of Buddhism here:

"If whatever good things I've done in this life have power of goodness,
I'll dedicate those power to your mother and you, my friend."

P.S. I was going to yell to my mother this morning but I realized about what you posted (about putting spiritual belief into everyday action) in time. Sometimes she was so stubborn and didn't want to take her medication. :-)

[sparklekaz]

Hi Mary Anne,

You have started off a great topic here, which has elicited a lot of interest and responses. It's clear that it's a subject we have all thought about quite intensely at some point. I know I have. Just how much do our beliefs influence us. And how integral are they to our actions. When you say better. Do you mean better people? I guess it depends on whether your beliefs are closed in and fixed. If you firmly believe that the world is a hostile place and that other people are not to be trusted. I would imagine that would mean you are a person who lives their life in fear. Becoming isolated. If you believe that for the most part, that the world is a beautiful place and that people in general are good and decent, that would open life for you. Beliefs are so multi faceted and multi layered. Is it belief or simply a 'state of mind'.

I like what ace said, when he said "In the never ending dance of life, to me beliefs are like flexible energy blueprints and mental-emotional scaffolding. The plans and structures are needed at certain times. And they may be needed to change or altered as the building gets built and bigger taking in a grandeur view of reality." This is how I see our beliefs. Not set in stone, but flexible. That they are something that we should be ready to let go of, if common sense and experience dictate. I think troubles arise when people hold onto them for grim death, totally unwilling to change their perspectives, or see things from other points of view. This is damaging and self limiting.

I think beliefs are so multi layered. Ranging from the superficial, to deep core beliefs. Which are the foundation upon which we build our lives. Is belief the right word I wonder. I tend to see the foundation beliefs as more like our core truths. These are the ones, if shaken can send ripples throughout our whole life. For example, serious disillusionment; discovering something we believed to be true about ourselves, our lives, proving to be false. The realization that under the right circumstances, we are capable of doing things that we would never have thought in a million years we would do. That can be shattering, or empowering, depending on if it is in a positive or negative way. Do we really know who we are?

Now that is a question. Have you ever discovered something about yourself that you never knew existed. Good or bad? I always thought as I aged, I would become more comfortable with myself. Surer of who I was. I have to say though, that in recent years I have discovered that to be the opposite. I wonder is age a factor. In as much as the cycles of life we go through, that bring change. Can just as easily bring to the surface aspects of character that had previously lain dormant. I've often wondered if this is an example of karma kicking in. Early in life experiences help us to mature and understand ourselves in a more day to day practical way. Maturity seems to bring to the surface, issues that are more complex. Maybe thats because we've cut through the outer superficial layers of self and are getting to the real 'nitty - gritty' stuff. I would welcome your thoughts on this.

Love and light
Kaz

[tribunalofmercy]

I really love listening to your thoughts, Kaz I have said before that I consider you to be somewhat of a mentor to me, in part because we think so much Alike but I perceive that you often do it Better than I do, and I wish to emulate that


So many of our Wise Teachers have, at some point, said (in variations) "Know Thyself". Which is, to me, one of the Core things that will bring us through All of the changes and discoveries that would otherwise shake us to our core....I remember a number of times in my life when I have been shaken to my core, and lived through it...I will come back to this because I Never run out of thoughts, lol - (I'm thinking of something separate at the moment)

[sparklekaz]

Oh how I know that feeling Mary Anne lol But I comfort myself in the thought, that it is just my nurons firing off, as I see how one thought relates to...oh so many others. But isn't that the beauty of being able to see in patterns. If we could see our thought processes at this moment, what a kalidascope of colour they would be. :)I am flattered that you wish to emulate me Mary Anne.. goodness knows why though. But I sincerely thank you for the compliment. I am seriously feeling good right now. I wish for you that you will always be yourself, because who you are, what you are and how you think.. is just perfect!!

One of my favourite quotes is by Sri Nisargadatta Maharaj. "Use your mind. Remember. Observe. You are not different from others. Most of their experiences are valid for you too. Think clearly and deeply, go into the structure of your desires and their ramifications. They are a most important part of your mental and emotional make-up and powerfully affect your actions. Remember, you cannot abandon what you do not know. To go beyond yourself, you must know yourself." And a little sufi story..Why... because I like it.

A Sufi teaching tells of the man who visited a great mystic to find out how to let go of his chains of attachment and his prejudices. Instead of answering him directly, the mystic jumped to his feet and bolted to a nearby pillar, flung his arms around it, grasping the marble surface as he screamed, "Save me from this pillar! Save me from this pillar!"

The man who had asked the question could not believe what he saw. He thought the mystic was mad. The shouting soon brought a crowd of people. "Why are you doing that?" the man asked. "I came to you to ask a spiritual question because I thought you were wise, but obviously you're crazy. You are holding the pillar, the pillar is not holding you. You can simply let go."

The mystic let go of the pillar and said to the man, "If you can understand that, you have your answer. Your chains of attachment are not holding you, you are holding them. You can simply let go."

And a little something else by Dr David Hawkins.. which I loved and found very encouraging.

The inspiration to evolve spiritually is already a manifestation of the presence of God within, and it’s certainly indicative of good karma. Just to want to know truth, to evolve, to improve oneself, to become a better person, to fulfill one’s potential – those are all inspirations. And the person doesn’t make them up; they just come to them. It’s like an innate desire to fulfill your potential. That potential as one evolves becomes more and more identified in spirituality – the capacity to love, to forgive, to appreciate, to see the beauty in all that exists, to live in peace and harmony instead of discord and strife. The only requirement is to do whatever you do to the best of your capacity and leave the rest up to God.” Dr. David Hawkins, Beyond the Ordinary

Love and light
Kaz

[cyberangel]

Hi Karen and Mary Anne

I really enjoyed reading both your posts...very good posts. Sorry its only short reply...im laid up here with a nasty virus which has completely knocked me off my feet

Chat again soon my friends

Love and light