Men of faith

[techavenger]

While reading Thessalonians this week I found a scripture that stuck out to me, it refers to men without faith. This line of scripture was interesting to me because I was reading a response to a previous post that referenced the dominance over the weak. I do not know of any faith that supports the dominance of another, the concept of free agency precludes that by its nature. The line of scripture in Thessalonians is from 2 Thessalonians 3:2  "And that we may be delivered from unreasonable and wicked men: for all men have not faith". Surely in the world there are wicked and faithless men that will void the concept of free agency and take away another's by domination. This line describes our hope that at the Savior's return, he will deliver us. There is another line I came across in 2 Thessalonians that further describes this 2:8  And then shall that Wicked be revealed, whom the Lord shall consume with the spirit of his mouth, and shall destroy with the brightness of his coming. This line furthers the Christian faith in the Savior and his return. Do all faithless men wish to do harm to another? Is it our duty to educate the faithless? Can a wicked man change? 

[donq]

Hi Techavenger,

(I'm glad to see that you still stick around)

As I told on my prior posts that it was not my place to post anything on the thread like this. Anyway, recently, there are less and less members/people visiting this forum. So, Let me talk to you a bit while waiting for someone else to come.

I believe that the first thing we should consider is the context. What do I mean by that? For example, in one context it might be true that "time and tide wait for no man" but in another context it might not (as in "slowly but surely"'s context.) So, what is the truth, the real one?

So, first of all, we have to be more specific which context are we talking about?

I don't know much about the Bible, but I read and like Ecclesiastes very much. Some quotes appear in my mind now (King James Version):

That which is crooked cannot be made straight: and that which is wanting cannot be numbered.

And I do believe in the following quote:

For in much wisdom is much grief: and he that increaseth knowledge increaseth sorrow.

The question is why the Preacher, the son of David said that after he "gave his heart to seek and search out by wisdom concerning all things that are done under heaven".

It seems the more we know the real world, the more we know the truth. For example, when we were young, we believed everyone was a good person. But the more we grow up, the more we had to learn the (bitter) truth that every is not a good person. And some even can never change.

You asked, "Do all faithless men wish to do harm to another?"
Maybe yes, maybe no. Still depends on its context.

Is it our duty to educate the faithless?
Maybe yes, maybe no.

Can a wicked man change?
Maybe yes, but rather no. (at least from the real world we've experienced nowadays)

As for the question, "Is it our duty to educate the faithless?" let me quote this (from an ancient Chinese book with a little bit change here):

Though your virtue may be great and your good faith unassailable, if you do not understand men's spirits, if you do not understand men's minds, but instead appear before a wicked man and force him to listen to sermons on benevolence and righteousness, measures and standards - this is simply using other men's bad points to parade your own excellence. You will be called a plaguer of others. He who plagues others will be plagued in turn. You will probably be plagued by this man.

I don't think the warning above has anything to do with stop trying to help others. Not at all. It's just the warning that in some contexts we really can do nothing except wait.

Again, this is just my causal talking to you as it's not my place to talk something serious.

[mojomojo]

Hello to you both, Techavenger and Monty (hope your keeping well, Monty).
I have to say, I do like the questions you ask, maybe I have asked the same questions myself.
This is my simplistic view of the situation.
Man was meant to be happy and at peace and in union with God, before the fall from grace.
The fall from grace is usually told as Adam and Eve, falling to temptation, by eating the forbidden fruit.
What ever way we use this symbology it seems to suggest the beginnings of the ego mind, when it starts to become about the individual, me, myself, I.
Combine the ego mind with fear, and you have a very dangerous cocktail.
To me there is a connection between the ego mind and the false self, that which is often referred to as the devil.
How much the ego mind controls you, determines how deep you have been sucked in.
Having said that, the ego mind must be responsible for driving some people to great feats and creating good, the problem been, some people will work hard to gain fame and adulation, others will do whatever it takes for fame and fortune.
The capitalistic world and the growth of social media, has played a large part in developing people to what they are today.
Studies among college students have shown that empathy is declining.
Back in the mid sixties, I grew up in my grandmothers house, there were probably twenty houses side by side, same on the opposite side.
In the summer months the front door was always left wide open, it was a common occurrence, in less favourable weather the door was closed, but always had the key in the lock on the outside, neighbours would come and go, letting themselves in. There was a great sense of community, everyone looked out for one another.
Now people do not know their neighbour, or worse still do not want to know.
Now elderly people living on their own, die at home, sometimes lying there for weeks, before they are discovered, that would never have happened before.
I do believe it’s part of spirituality at the beginning, the want to rush out and tell people what you have learned.
My experience of this was met with total abandonment, people either think you are insane or turn the other way, it leads to nothing but isolating yourself.
People do not want their foundation shaken, they cling to their ways, protecting it to the last.
If you doubt this, what happened to Jesus and his followers, they ended up running for their lives and they eventually murdered Jesus himself.
It is my opinion, the human mind has reached a point, where if there is not a sudden change, we will eventually wipe ourselves out, due to greed, bitterness and self obsessiveness’s.
That which is going on in the Ukraine today is the macro version of the state of the human mind today

Mojo.

[gruntal]

You would think in the Age of Enlightenment that faith would become obsolete. In fact all we have done is push back the boundaries. Using the scientific method we have tested and verified a lot of things that are now indisputably true. But things are always discovered to be more complicated then we thought.

The Rosicrucians like to think of ourselves as walking question marks. It is a sign of faith we can do this because we do not think of ourselves as skeptics.

As an aside: I read a fascinating article on Japanese - commonly older men sans job or families - dying alone. My family was skirting this possibility but I elected to not go that route. I trust all the people I now allow in my house will not betray me.

[donq]

Hi everyone,

As recently, no one seems to be interested in any new thread I posted, so, let me post here instead. This way, at least I will not feel so bad. lol

But I think it might has something to do with we are talking about.

There was a time when I wondered why it was so hard (if not impossible) to tell/convince someone to understand something the same way we do. Then I found and read one of Jung's experiment researches (Studies on word association). To make the long short here, everyone (honestly and unconsciously) understands the very same word differently. After hearing the word "father" A. might think of "uncle"; B. thinks of worry; C. thinks of our house etc.
If that's really the case, then how could we make everyone understand the same meaning the same way? I don't mean that we should stop trying. But I think we should not have high hopes, shouldn't we?
I also read somewhere that, "everyone is unique".

Again, my apologies to Techavenger.

P.S. Hi, Robert. I'm fine. Thanks for asking.

[gruntal]

As I understand some of the so-called primitive languages actually assign different meanings to words depending on how they are used in sentences ect. I would imagine in face to face contact even more connotations would predominate. I am amazed sometimes how the word INTERNET means going on the web or just accessing the computers at your home network or even using your hard drive vs. using something called CLOUD.

[techavenger]

I like the point of the past lifestyle, of open neighborhoods and caring. I also agree we are far from that, and even closer to the end by the way we ignore one another. Is anyone familiar with the DOOMSDAY CLOCK? For the topic of understanding differently, I would add that perhaps the fact that we are all at different stages in our development explains why we understand words differently; that and the obvious educational and environmental variables. 

[mojomojo]

Hi Techavenger,
as of January 2022, we are 100 seconds from midnight, or so it has been reported.
May I suggest you watch a video by Ray Dalio on you tube, titled, Changing World Order.
It may well give an idea of where we are, and where we might be headed.

Mojo.

[gruntal]

The DoomsDay Clock has little or no regard for political or much less spiritual death. I can only hope as an excuse it's founders did not live long enough to realize how one sided the effort was and how misguided it would become. For example forcing people to get Covid-19 vaccinations against their will assumes an unfailable cure for a guaranteed fatal or near fatal event. To people who survived the disease handily or were immune or asymptomatic the reality is much different. Fear is destroying humanity just as surely as hate.

[techavenger]

Fear is destroying humanity just as surely as hate.

[gruntal]

As per usual a long story I don't have time for right now but I have been given "suggestions" by psychics and mediums in recent years that seemed like somebody did have access to my mind. As an example: I grew up in an era when we were warned as kids we were the first generation that might not die or even exist naturally due to an atomic holocaust. I thought at that time something didn't sound right. Now in my old age I am seeing something just as menacing as nuclear phobia to society surrounding the Covid 19 pandemic. It might seem I had a premonition as a kid humans might trade in everything that made them human and enabled human progress just for security. I have nightmares myself I must lock myself indoors to save me from the dragons outside. Dragons I never see and are invisible but I just fear them and can never unlock the doors an windows.

Odd I have never dreamed of dying. Only of running and trying to find shelter ....