hypnosis and spirituality

[donq]

There was the talking about hypnosis on another thread, and I'd like to start a new thread on this. I've been studied it for more than two decades, but never used it. Somehow it's against my spiritual practice (it' not good to manipulate other people in one way or another).
My post will try to summarize all I know about hypnosis. I'm sorry that it might be a long post, as it's necessary. Anyway, please feel free to join and add anything.

There's a basic law of mind: we cannot think two things at the same time. The word "think" here means the focus of our minds. We cannot focus on two different things at once. Sure, there's always an exception. Someone can practice to focus on two or more things at the same time, like a driver, a musician etc. but that has something to do with our bodies, not our minds. We cannot think London AND New York at the same time.
Then comes a hypnosis. Hypnosis is not something that hypnotist says to you "close your eyes" etc. and you going into a trance and completely lose all of your control over yourself. Let me give you some example to clarify it rightly. It's from the case of Milton H. Erickson, M.D., the creative psychiatrist and medical hypnotherapist (died in 1980):

One time his son Robert slipped and cut his mouth rather seriously. Dr. Erickson picked him up, brought him to the bathroom to wash out his mouth and assess the damage. Robert was frightened and crying.
Dr. Erickson said, “It hurts, Robert, it hurts awful bad! I wonder when it’s going to stop hurting.”
[This began to shift Robert’s attention to a time beyond the pain and fear.]
Next Dr. Erickson said to his wife, who was hovering anxiously nearby, “Look at that blood, Mother. That is fine red, healthy blood.”
[That further shifted Robert’s attention from the pain to the blood in the sink.]
Next Dr. Erickson said, “I wonder whether you are going to get more stitches than your brother got when he had his accident?”
[Again, this shifted Robert’s attention to a time after the pay and trauma and engaged a little sibling competition.]
And so on until Robert was calm and they took him to the hospital where he was stitched up while sitting calmly.

Some of his students was so upset when she heard about this (true) story. She thought it was so cruel to manipulate a child like that. I will explain it later after the following example:

A guy is driving home has a flat, he gets the spare and lug wrench finds he has no Jack and starts to walk..He sees a light in a farm house and decides he will ask to borrow the farmers jack... It's about 2 miles to the house he talks to himself about the man will not loan him the jack, or might charge him bandy, the more the argues with himself, the madder he gets, he arrives at the farm house, bangs on the door and when the man opens the door he says, "Keep your damned jack!"


From the second example, he "hypnotized" himself to think that. He was in trance all the way. Here comes the truth about hypnosis, "every hypnosis is a self-hypnosis". And not everyone cannot be hypnotized. Period.

From the first example, let me rewrite it in this way, to show that not everyone could be hypnotized..
Dr. Erickson said, “It's nothing, Robert. Don't feel any hurt.”
I (as Robert), "Are you crazy? It's hurt like hell. It's like you told me, 'Don't think about a pink elephant, pink elephant.' The moment you said that, I saw the pink elephant at once even I didn't see it before!"

Yes, hypnosis is a kind of manipulation. The point is who uses it and for what purpose. An authority, say, a doctor, might use it to help his patients (like Robert's case), then, it's okay, isn't? Frankly speaking, an authority already has this power. When a client who was suffering with a toothache reached a dental office, it seemed his ache was alleviated. And when he tried so show his dentist how bad it was back at home, it turned out that his ached was gone at once!
Trance is a very common state of mind. Sometimes, it even could benefit us. For example, a mother suffering extremely severe pain and all-absorbed in her pain experience. Yet she forgets it without effort or intention when she sees her infant dangerously threatened or seriously hurt. Soldiers in combat seriously wounded, but who did not notice their injuries until later. There such abolition of pain occurs in daily life in situations where pain is taken out of awareness by more compelling stimuli of another character. One might enjoyed watching a suspenseful movie, and found later (when it was finished) that he was sitting on his emptied popcorn plate all the time.
In this aspect, trance is good, isn't it. Is a knife bad? I believe it depends. A knife is a very useful tool. But yes, it's also a very dangerous tool to hurt others.

P.S. Sure, subliminal (signal or message designed to pass below (sub) the normal limits of perception)] techniques (news ticker or "crawler" or "slide") are used successfully in advertising, but it still depends on us to decide if we would buy it or not. Besides, we always hypnotize ourselves in one way or another, don't we? We read romance (escape novels), go into the cinema, pub etc. to do that, to forget our burden, to enjoy ourselves, and to forget the world outside.
I believe we always are in trance even before we go to see any hypnotist, or before we are manipulated by anything or anyone. When we are angry, greed, lust, aren't we in trance? I think this is the real task for us, as a spiritual person, to deal with our own trances or our self-hypnosis.

[sparklekaz]

Hi Monty,

I really enjoyed reading this. As usual you gave some great examples to illustrate your point. I agree that some people are more suggestible then others. And as you have shown, some techniques will work on some and not on others. And it always dependent on how receptive they are. I had to laugh when you described the one response of the little boy looking at his Dad like he was crazy, when he tried to suggest it 'really didn't hurt that much'. That is the response I'd have got off my kids when they were little lol Though interestingly, I am suddenly reminded of using visualization, to help my then 4 year old daughter Danni cope with the pain of earache.

She was suffering from glue ear, and was having repeated bouts of very painful earache. At the time I'd been practicing visualization for self healing. I wondered, if I kept it simple, could I use it to help her too. She'd had the maximum amount of Calpol she was allowed and was still in a lot of pain, so I felt it could not harm to try it. I said, how does your ear feel darling. She said its hot and it hurts. I said, what if we try to cool it down. Ok she said. I said, tilt your head to one side, and I'm going to pour in some cool soothing water. She looked at me at bit taken aback, thinking I was literally going to pour cold water in her ear. I told her, we were going to 'pretend'. She nodded happy at that. And quickly enjoy playing the game of make believe. So we scooped up our imaginary water, and she helped, and we kept pouring it into her ear. After doing this a few times, she turned to me with a big smile and said, we don't need any more water now Mummy, my ear feels much cooler, it is better now. It had worked.

Love and light
Kaz

[donq]

Wonderful, Karen, wonderful!

I liked the song (Hurt) in the new movie, Logan, sang by Johnny Cash. It starts like this:

"I hurt myself today, to see if I still feel. I focus on the pain. The only thing that's real."

When we get hurt, we only focus on the pain (in the other words, somehow we are thrown into trances). How to distract it? Taking painkiller? And how do painkillers work? Here's from somewhere on the internet:

"When part of your body is injured, special nerve endings send pain messages back to your brain. Painkilling drugs interfere with these messages, either at the site of the injury, in the spinal cord or in the brain itself. Many painkillers are based on one of two naturally occurring drugs: aspirin and opiates..."

In the other words, painkillers distract our pains by tampering with our brains, and making them dumb. The problem is sometimes, many times, painkillers don't work. Not to mention our their enormous (badly) side effects. Then comes hypnosis etc., to distract our attentions from our pain (unmanageable trance), by using another manageable trance. Why not? There's nothing to lose, right?

I believe that, in this aspect, a mother is a natural born hypnotist. Her sing lullaby and touch really soothe her baby and put it into a sound sleep (comparing to a deep trance).

Let me rewrite your case (true story) on your lovely daughter Danni, to make the point about hypnosis, even it was about visualization:

After Calpol (paracetamol used to treat pain and fever for a child) didn't work, you tried to put her into a trance (visualization), to help treating her pain.

You, "How does your ear feel darling?"
[Preparing her to be more susceptible. In hypnosis, there are many techniques on this: direct suggestion, indirect suggestion, confusion technique, surprising technique, utilization technique etc. To important point is to get her full attention, so that it will distract her from her pain later. If this important starting point fails, no way to put her into trance.]

Danni, "Its hot and it hurts."
You, "What if we try to cool it down?"
[This brought her full attention for sure. And you used the very right word, to contradict her "hot". She wanted nothing more than making it "cool" down, didn't she? Your indirect suggestion worked well here. You didn't suggest that you would make her pain went away. The word "pain" was forbidden here. It would make her feel worse and terminate the upcoming trance.]

Danni, "Ok."
[Frankly speaking, This also was some kind of direct suggestion. You were her mother. You were an authority, like a doctor, in her eyes. She believed in you and trusted you like we believe and trust our doctors.]

You, "Tilt your head to one side, and I'm going to pour in some cool soothing water."
She looked at me at bit taken aback, thinking I was literally going to pour cold water in her ear.


You, "I told her, we were going to 'pretend'."
She nodded happy at that.
[You did a great job here. After you saw her reaction, you immediately corrected the situation and put her into the right track again. This could be called "utilization technique" and "surprising technique". I mean, even at first you really meant to literally did that (pouring in real water), and when you saw her reaction on this, you "utilized" it and using a surprising technique by telling her that it was just a pretending, not a real water. Hence you secure her into a trance (being suggestible) again.]

And here was the final result, as you told:
"And quickly enjoy playing the game of make believe. So we scooped up our imaginary water, and she helped, and we kept pouring it into her ear. After doing this a few times, she turned to me with a big smile and said, we don't need any more water now Mummy, my ear feels much cooler, it is better now. It had worked."

Great work, Karen. Gear work. Two thumbs up!

I always wonder, do hypnosis or any techniques really work, or just time will heal, or both? I mean, even you did nothing, she would feel better by herself after some times, right? Sure you helped accelerating that healing time, no doubt. Besides, I'm just a theorist on hypnosis, not a practical one. 

P.S. It turned out that it rained here and we had to put off our trip. My mother was upset. Her dogs didn't say anything because they could not speak. I was okay as I didn't want to go in the first place but I just loved driving.

[sparklekaz]

Hi Monty,

It was really interesting to hear you describe the process like that.

I do think when we experience pain we become anxious and everything becomes hypersensitive. People who suffer from anxiety often describe feeling 'super aware' of every ache and pain in their body. They tingle. They feel the hairs on their arms raise. Their scalps prickle. And the slightest change, in temperature. They hear their heartbeat and are self conscious of normal body responses like breathing. Their anxiety can make what is normal abnormal. Such is the power of the mind. Clearly mind can create pain and discomfort, so it makes sense that it can also help to relieve it.

As you say, it may well have been that Danni's earache would have got better soon after by itself, but by distracting her as well as creating the belief, even if it was 'make believe' that she could help make the pain go away by herself, was helpful. I never thought about it at the time, but you made a good point about not referring her earache as 'pain'. Saying the word would have re focused her attention upon that, maybe amplifying it rather than dulling it. Very interesting Monty.

I remember watching a documentary once on the use of hypnosis on medical proceedures. A man had, had a severe phobia about the dentist. And badly needed treatment. He hadn't been to the dentist for many years. So he decided to seek help for it. The viewer watched him undergo much needed dental treatment, and not only did he remain calm throughout, he did not need any pain relief. It was absolutely fascinating. I could do with trying it myself really, as I have had a real terror of the dentist since I was a child, and do badly need some work done.

You made me laugh about your trip to the beach. I am sorry for your Mum and the dogs disappointment, but at the same time happy you were happy lol Maybe you can go today instead.

Love and light
Kaz

[mojomojo]

Hello ALL,
There have been many studies done on the commanding influence, authoritative figures hold over people, this has been proven to extremes, we have been brought up [programmed] to respect authority, those who do not, usually get punished.
How much stronger is the bond between a child and father/ mother, in your example an authoritative figure a doctor, children are far more susceptible to suggestion and will accept everything a loving mother says as absolute truth.
There is nothing wrong with using suggestion and distraction for a good cause, at best, I would call it, very mild hypnosis [suggestion], trance is another matter altogether.
Not focusing on the pain by distraction, playing down the situation, and introducing bravado, to out do the brother, playing on pride, is not hypnosis or trance, but mind games, manipulation used for a better outcome.
Hypnosis can also be used for good, helping people give up smoking etc.

Your second example of the man looking for a jack, seems to be nothing more than his own fear of rejection, built up in his head that eventually led to his outburst, nothing to do with hypnosis or trance.
"Trance is a very common state of mind," seriously, this must be a joke, right.

Your last few examples, are situations of extreme emotion, fueled by adrenaline and nothing more than distraction, If, I have a bad headache, go for a walk, on that walk someone attacks me with an axe, I will not be thinking about the headache, distraction.

Yes, I agree with you, we can put ourselves in mild states of hypnosis, with novels, movies etc, escapism, but is still nowhere near trance.
To state that anger, greed and lust are trance states, seriously, another joke, right.

From my point of view, there is no comparison with what is stated here, and practicing everyday in what is self hypnosis, which with regularity can deepen and lead to trance states, which can lead to hallucinations and stripping down of the personality.

Trance, a half conscious state, characterized by the absence of response to external stimuli, typically as induced by hypnosis or entered by a medium.

[mojomojo]

Hi Multi,

To make people aware, to question everything, not to accept blind faith, to realize what is going on, to learn from own experience and not blindly except what others claim.

Corruption on both the physical, religious and spiritual planes.

To live life on my terms, not on what society dictates or is expected, to be yourself, live the life you were meant to live.

The number one regret,of people on their death bed, "I wish I had lived a life more true to myself, rather than the life others expected of me."

I rarely watch t.v., but I have heard of what happened in Stockholm, my deepest condolences to you and your people, my Country suffered from such atrocities for decades.

[mojomojo]

Hi,
you added another question while I was typing.

If people realize the tactics of manipulation, they are aware.
Iàm not stating we all go around in a hypnotic state all the time, but why would we chose to partake in practices which are self hypnosis, there lies your free will, to do it or not.

[mojomojo]

My most important question right now.

Whether Iàm talking a load of bull or not.

Trust me I know there is a spirit world, but part of that is negative, and it doesnt want you getting past, there are many detours presented and the lack of escape artists causes serious doubt.

[sparklekaz]

Hi Robert,

You say what you want to do, is "To make people aware, to question everything, not to accept blind faith, to realize what is going on, to learn from own experience and not blindly except what others claim." I think you are already doing that. Many serious spiritual seekers ( and I'm not talking about those people who dip into the latest new age fad, who are only interested in the 'whoo hoo' factor) are already aware of the pitfalls you describe. And to be honest, I don't think deep down those who are only superficially exploring the spiritual and esoteric, are really interested in or worried about the illusion or manipulation side of things. The self deception. Because, honestly I think they take it all at face value and are quite happy with that. Because those who do worry about being deceived are those who care an awful lot about it. So I guess I'm saying that those who seriously get into this kind of thing are probably already aware of the risks you speak of.

I think we are all trying to live a life where we are true to ourselves. But, there is a difference between selfishly putting ourselves first, or doing as we please without care of hurting others. To being honest and truthful, with others and with ourselves. Basically, just because 'we can do something, doesn't always mean we should'. There is always accountability and to some degree responsibility. Whether we like it or not, what we do, does affect other people. This is where emotional intelligence comes in. Eventually, hopefully, instead of trying to back track out of a mess of a situation we have created, we start to recognize before we embark on it, where it will end up if we don't change course fast. In life I've found, even if we do not end up doing what we intended, what we do do ends up being worthwhile, in some way. Even if its a lesson of some kind. My thoughts are, yes, we can be spiritually manipulated and deceived, but in all honesty, we are more likely to have that happen in our every day life. If we can learn how to cope with that, it kind of helps when it comes to dealing with spirit. Human nature is human nature, whatever its source.

Love and light
Kaz

[mojomojo]

Most people who take a spiritual path meditate, sooner or later, meditation is self hypnosis.
Practiced on a regular basis over a period of time, we become better at it, we go deeper and deeper, until we start hitting trance states, continuing to practice, we will hit trance states, easier and quicker.
Trance states are where we receive hallucinations and contact with spirit, we have self hypnotized and bypassed the logical mind, everything played out in that state comes from the subconscious, so is it all mind games.
When in that realm we encounter both negative and positive spirits, we are led to believe there is somewhere to reach, heaven, Nirvana, but yet no-one seems to have reached it, what plays out in that realm is what we have buried in our subconscious.
In a deep hypnotic trance you will see and hear whatever you want.

So the question is, is there a spirit world or does it all manifest in a hypnotic trance, from the subconscious.
If so it must have been designed by man, to keep people passive.

All spiritual practices are forms of hypnosis, prayer, chanting, meditation, living in the now, why do we need to hypnotize ourselves for a spirit world to exist.
If it all comes from the subconscious, then none of the rest matters.

[mojomojo]

Hello KAZ,
I would not agree that everyone who comes to spirituality is aware of the dangers, people tend not to talk about that aspect, but instead focus on the positives.
How many people would attend a reiki seisson, if you told them they may be spirits present in the room, assisting, and you had no idea who they were.
To live a life true to ones self, doesn't necessarily mean we have to be selfish, of course there is responsibility and accountability.
If we put up with something because we feel we are learning from it, that is fair enough, but if it all comes from the mind and the school of life is nothing more than a myth, then the point is no more.

[mojomojo]

Hello Multi,
no, I meant the whole spiritual thing been created by man, not the world.

The Bible has been referred to as the greatest story ever told.

Do you meditate, have you seen visions in meditation, be honest with yourself, have you ever seen anything you did not already recognize.
What does that tell you.

[mojomojo]

WHY DO YOU BELIEVE IN SPIRITUALITY?

[mojomojo]

Which texts and how did you develop your intuition?

[sparklekaz]

Hi guys,

I think its relevant to remember that meditation and the ability to achieve trance states has been happening for thousands of years. Buddhist monks in this state can achieve what could be deemed to be supernatural abilities. Walking on hot coals without burning their feet or feeling any pain. They could control their body temperature and slow down their heart beats. These are not supernatural powers, they just learnt that 'mind' could be controlled. And I'm guessing clever things that they were, they could also see how this mind power could be used in negative ways, just as it can be used in positive ways.

As I understand it, they used meditation primarily to connect with God or christ consciousness within. Understanding that you have to by-pass the conscious, egoic mind to reach that higher, super-conscious which is the link to universal mind/spirit, call it what you will. Native American Medicine men would use drums, chanting and dancing to achieve this same state. Shamanic cultures would do similar, though they would also use herbs in ritualized form to speed up and achieve similar affects. Though each of these peoples would have their own focus. The Buddhists to be self realized, to reach enlightenment, and the Native Americans and Shamans, to commune with 'the great spirit' or spirit world.

The point I'm trying to make is this Robert. These are ancient practices. Done to commune with the great beyond, the spirit world. They would not have thought, hey, this would be a great tool for brainwashing people. As I said before, and others have said also. There will always be duality in life. People will use things for good or ill. But just because there is this duality, and yes even in spirit. It does not diminish the purer purposes that people aspire to by using these techniques.

You say, how would people feel if they knew when working with Reiki, that sometimes they are accompanied by spirits to help with the healing they did not know. When embarking on a Reiki course, the Reiki Master teacher will have explained what reiki is, how it works and the concept of 'the reiki masters'. They will or should also be told that sometimes spirit guides and helpers will also drop in to help or watch. We work on the premise that when you are working for the highest good of the patient and each other, and you use the correct protection, like attracts like. when something is done out of love and compassion, it does minimize the risk of attachment, though I acknowledge not immune to it.

I believe in God, and I believe in the power of good. At the end of the day sometimes we must just trust in the power of intention. The spiritual path is not for the faint hearted, and if someone is fear driven and keeps having negative thoughts, they will also attract similar. And there are some spiritual practices that do carry more risk with them. And if someone decides to pursue those paths, they must accept self responsibility for doing it. And if they cannot, then for goodness sake don't do it. The warnings are out there. But human nature being what it is, you mention risk, or don't do it, to some people, and it makes them want to do it even more. You just can't win.

As I've said before, we are only responsible for our own paths. We can advise others, but you cannot stop someone from doing something they have set their minds and hearts on. Experience will be their teacher. I would definitely not recommend anyone to do it if they cannot keep their thoughts focused and intentions of the highest. Strong minds are needed for a demanding path. No one said it was easy, or without risk. We just don't give it more attention that it warrants. Use protection, and deal with any negativity, if, or when it arises.

Love and light
Kaz

[mojomojo]

Hello Kaz,
In the few workshops I have attended and through all three attunements, I have never heard an explanation other than universal energy, even when pushed for a deeper explanation, everyone present at every level, 1,2,and 3 held the same explanation.
My question was not what the master tells the practitioner, but what the practitioner tells the client.
If hypnotic states and trances bypass the egoic mind, then how can we be sure we deal with anything other than the subconscious.
I do not agree that like attracts like, but when open to spiritual realms, we are open to all, no matter what protection is used, which seems to suggest neither one holds rank.

[sparklekaz]

If what you say is true Robert, then reiki practicioners would continually encounter spiritual/psychic attacks when practicing healing. I have been practicing Reiki for nearly 14 years, and in all that time I have never been attacked as a healer. I have known many reiki healers, and attended reiki shares and workshops and in all that time, I have only heard one report of this kind. In that instance it was connected to encountering a negative attachment to the recipient, rather then direct to the healer. This attachment issue was dealt with easily as part of the healing process. So I'm really not sure what your basing your reasoning on that protection, is of no use.

What I am struggling to understand Robert, is why you've developed such an extreme view. Its as if you no longer believe in anything, distrust and are fearful of everything now connected to spirit. You acknowledge duality, as I do to. Which I see as a delicate balance between the two, which does fluctuate. It is said, that as the aspirant or seeker draws nearer to their own self realization, the ego, doubt or lower forces put up one last huge fight. Filling the mind with fear and doubt. The ego, does not want to release its power to keep us deluded, will use mind logic and intellect to prevent any further advancement. A one last hurrah if you like. Self sabotaging thinking.

I have to say, I've never come across such a blind refusal to even acknowledge the existence of grace, unconditional love and protection, which does shield us. It makes me wonder if you have considered that you yourself are in the grip of some kind of attachment, which is doing to you, that which you fear is being done to others without their knowledge. It can work both ways Robert. Using your fears to hinder or destroy any progress you have made. I do not believe blindly. But I am also not close minded. Be careful you don't go too far down that path. I say this with all respect and in friendship. Just something for you to consider.

Love and light
Kaz

[donq]

Wow! This thread was so cool! Normally, whenever I started any thread, it was always a very dead silence.
Thanks everyone.

Hi Robert,

You said, "There is nothing wrong with using suggestion and distraction for a good cause, at best, I would call it, very mild hypnosis [suggestion], trance is another matter altogether. Not focusing on the pain by distraction, playing down the situation, and introducing bravado, to out do the brother, playing on pride, is not hypnosis or trance, but mind games, manipulation used for a better outcome." and asked if it was a joke about what I said, "Trance is a very common state of mind."

-I was not joking! I spent years to think it was not, common state of mind until I met the work of Dr. Milton H. Erickson (who he was, you can easily find out on the internet). Anyway, to be fair, let me quote Stephen R Lankton who has been a psychotherapist and conducts workshops internationally (24 countries) and was an editor of the American Journal of Clinical Hypnosis for ten years:

"Dr. Erickson went to a lot of effort to demonstrate that hypnosis was a common-everyday phenomenon that perhaps everyone experiences often. Among his goals in the later years, when I knew him, was to promote the use of this common-everyday experience in therapy that employed hypnosis. So, Erickson and his students de-mythologize hypnosis and remove its esoteric baggage, possibly to an extreme. Apparently there are some who have not realized this aspect of Erickson's work."

You asked, "To state that anger, greed and lust are trance states, seriously, another joke, right.?"
-You might be right. But again, I was not joking. There are positive and negative deep trance. Let me give examples:
I was in my favorite bookstores at noon and found some very interesting books. I started to read them, then, I turned my eyes off the pages, it was already evening! Where was many hours gone? Wasn't I in the very deep trance?
The moment a husband found out that his wife cheated on him, he killed her on spot. Then, he cried with remorse. No one (even himself) believed that he was capable of that. Wasn't he in the very deep trance?

Again, as a friend, I have to tell you above. I hope that you should have something to support your opinions, not just your own experiences. I didn't mean your experience was not right, it's just hard to join in (friendly) discussion. And believe me, after I have been a posters on many spiritual forums for more than 12 years, I do know. Talking from only each of one own experience brought us to nowhere. We should have some common groups. And as this is a spiritual forums, let me finish this post with what my spiritual teacher (a monk) once said:
There are fours kind of spiritual persons:
1. Thunder and rain. (talking and knowing).
2. No Thunder, no rain (don't talk, don't know).
3 Thunder but no rain (talk but don't know).
4. No thunder, but rain (not talking but know).

[mojomojo]

Hello all,
First I would like to state, the original question was, Does all spirituality come from the subconscious?
Given that to access it needs hypnosis, to bypass the logical mind, as a hypnotist does.
I expressed on the other post that the topic was more or less finished, that I felt I was constantly repeating myself.
I do not have any attachments, or am I fear based about anything, in short Iam of very sound mind, with great clarity.
If you recall, we went to see a reiki master some time ago, who performed a clearing on us both, this lady has been in the field of reiki all her life, she is a board member of the reiki federation Ireland, she spoke of entities as been quite common in her field of work, and advised that reiki practitioners, have clearings done on a regular basis,


Personally I feel to examine and question everything is healthy, I have not even formed a decision, never mind an extreme view, to look at the negative side of things, to me does not come from fear, quite the opposite exactly, sweeping stuff under the carpet is more fear based.
The realization that no matter what protection is used, every now and again one will slip through, is not a blind refusal to acknowledge the existence of grace, unconditional love or protection, but extremism used in discussion, and to top it off a little psychological reversal at the end.
I have to comment on the last line of a post you made last night, "Use protection, and deal with any negativity if, or when it arises." What a flippant comment to make, it is not unheard of for some to have psychotic episodes from dabbling and many claim bi-polar, to be spiritual awakenings when the person is not ready.

[mojomojo]

Iam sorry Donq, but we are going to have to differ on what you term trance.
For me hypnosis and trance are different, one leads to the other, but trance is a half conscious state, removed from external stimuli, therefore it is only possible to read while in mild hypnosis, sorry, it is my understanding.

Your second example, the man killing his wife, blind rage, I suffered from it a lot as a child, and would do things I never thought I was capable of and be full of remorse after, I do believe it is something buried deep inside everyone, a survival instinct, it just takes a certain situation to bring it out.
You are a peaceful, non violent man, if when you were married, someone attacked your wife and was killing her, can you honestly say how you would re-act.

I do take on board your comment about speaking from own experience, and it is a good point, obviously others cannot relate if they have not had same experience.

[sparklekaz]

Hi Robert,

First of all I'd like to say, I am sorry if I have offended you. It really was not my intention. I simply wanted you to consider the possibility of yourself being a victim of the kind of mind manipulation that you have spoken about at length. I was playing devils advocate. But, having said that, it is I believe a question we should all ask ourselves periodically; particularly if we actively participate in meditation and other spiritual practices in which we open ourselves up to spirit.

You have said, and I totally agree with this statement "Personally I feel to examine and question everything is healthy". This is something I have always done. I was raised a Catholic, who as I've said before are extremely distrustful of anything to do with the supernatural/spirit realm. So I've had to overcome a lot of deep rooted fears along the way. If there was protection to be used, I used it treble fold. I have constantly questioned what I have felt and seen. Tested it in every way you can imagine.

When I first started actively participating in spiritual practice, I would frequently stop, until I felt comfortable enough - and it felt right to proceed again. I've educated myself. Studied the chakras and their metaphysical/physical properties. Read at length about psychic attacks and when we are vulnerable. What to watch out for. And learnt the most powerful all encompassing way in which I can protect myself, where I live and those I heal. Always, always testing it. So when I say, "use protection and deal with any negativity, if or when it arises", it is not a flippant comment. I do take it extremely seriously. I just believe its important to keep things in perspective and proportion to the risk. If someone has done the right preparation, and has protection in place - at all times. Not just when they think they might need it.

If an individual wishes to be a channel for healing, or to open up to spirit, they cannot worry all the time about a psychic attack, this has to hinder their ability to function in the way they wish. It will create a barrier. Not a psychic shield, but a fear blockage. Being prepared is key. Believing in your protection, and willing to deal with the negativity if it happens, is the way forward. We can't live our lives in fear Robert. If someone is that afraid or fearful, then this is not the right path for them. I trust my heart and intuition, more then I trust my mind. My mind can trick me, as you've pointed out. My heart and gut instincts do not lie.

I think we both agree, that many, many people do not do the preparation. Or educate themselves properly. And it is this 'playing' with spirit that causes the problem. Is it any surprise though, when you can get your Reiki 1, 2 and 3 in a weekend workshop. Or that Tarot cards are sold in the shops for anyone to buy. I bet most don't realize or think that they need to use protection when they use them. But they do. And what about those people who are born naturally very psychic, who have spirit trying to communicate with them all the time. They are completely open and haven't a clue about protection. Spontaneous psychic opening can cause real anxiety. Then there is kundalini awakening. I could go on and on.

That is why it is important to have forums like this; particularly for those people who in their daily life have no one around them with whom to ask for advice or talk to about the problems they are having. We have talked about the importance of protection on here all the time. And for some people, they can't just choose to not have these experiences, because they just happen. They can't switch it off. If they are already frightened, constantly ramming home the dangers, wont help. So you try to give them some knowledge and advice on protection. You point them towards properly run development groups. The spiritual church. You advise them if they want to develop healing, not to rush it. Do it slowly over a period of years. To find a teacher, advisor a guide or a group of likeminded people to be supported by.

Whether we like it or not Robert, human beings have always had the ability to be open to spirit; some to a greater degree than others. All we can do is offer support. And most of all reinforce the importance of being positive, unafraid, strong in mind and intention, always for their own and those they help, their highest good. I do not meditate very often. But today, in the sunshine, I am going to meditate on this and see what comes.

Love and light
Kaz


Something I would like to add, which I left out in the above post, is the importance of doing 'personal work'. By this I mean developing self understanding. On my journey I have made mistakes, and allowed myself to be distracted by issues that played on my emotional state of mind. As well as in my willingness to learn, I did not always place my trust in the right places. People, to my mind are the most manipulative. The spiritual path is littered with teachers and mentors that can get lost or caught up in the admiration of their students. In some cases abusing that trust and power. We should be watchful of this I believe as much as the negative influence of lower vibration spirit. I have worked hard to 'grow up' for want of a better word. I've worked hard at self analysis and self honesty. I feel if we understand how we think and react. What behaviour will elicit certain responses. Learn to question our thoughts and second guess them, if they seem to come out of nowhere with no rational reason. That heightens our awareness and we are quicker to pick up on for want of a better word 'outside interference', that does not originate from us. Doing the self work alongside spiritual/psychic development, to me is paramount. " Know thy self, and to thine own self be true"

[mojomojo]

Hello Karen,
Please accept my apology for having taken your comment out of context, at times it can be frustrating to get your point across on a forum, Donq`s wise words are still ringing in my ear, it is my fault to assume everyone understands or has experienced my path, each path can be quite different.

I will tell you of a dream of sorts I had in Glastonbury, when doing the masters.
We were travelling by car, a few of us to this remote location, for some reason it was of importance to me to meet this lady, I needed a reason why she had refused contact with me[ the contact was by astral travelling].
We reached the house, two people stood in a large window , they seemed reluctant to come out, and disappeared into the back of the house.
We got out of the car and stood there, my frustration growing at the lack of contact.
Eventually, after quite some time, two people came out, a man and woman, the woman walked up to me and draped herself around me in a hug, she seemed very fragile, not in an ill way, but delicate, very delicate.
Her voice was very faint, and she said, "Iàm sorry, but your energy is too harsh for me," and she left.

I may not understand how I come across online, maybe at times it seems a bit aggressive, but I would describe it to myself as determined and strong, my wife describes me, as if I had a steel rod running through my core, unmovable.
I have the same problem when astral travelling, my spirit is gone like a ballistic missile, it is a psychological strain to stop it and reign it in.
I had to laugh when Donq wrote in a post, he was detached from his body so much the bus conductor would not come for his fare.
The first time I saw my, not sure if it was a spirit guide or a representation of my higher self, I was scared of me, but it was not aggressiveness, more sheer determined fearlessness, I remember thinking if thats the standard I have to reach, I have a way to go.

Here is another example of been taken up wrong online, I asked Multi a question and just by sheer mistake it came out in capitals, I have later been told by my wife, capitals mean you are shouting, I had no idea.
So sorry Multi, but I was most certainly not shouting.

If I had to take a guess, I believe Iam been prepared for a certain path, one that has been hinted at, every step of my journey and the schooling at times quite severe.

God bless.

[mojomojo]

Hi Multi,
As far as I can remember the house was in a country setting, forest, quite isolated, a narrow lane led up to it, the house itself was mostly covered with vegetation and trees, only the large window was visible from where we stood, they came out through the window[ sliding].At most three others, maybe two, not sure. No recollection of weather, which means it was not raining or windy.
Not sure if I was annoyed it ended so quick or if it was someone else in the group, but there was definite annoyance.
She knew we were coming, but there was still reluctance, as soon as we spoke it ended, abruptly.
Never told the story before.