A Guilty Conscience

[sparklekaz]

Hi everybody,

I believe that guilt, is a driving force that is as common as love and as damaging as hate. It is more insidious, more difficult to escape and more persistently destructive then lust, ambition, ego or vanity. Most of us suffer from it some of the time; some of us suffer from it all of the time. I believe that the more people care about others and the more sensitive and considerate they are, the more likely they will be to suffer from guilt. It is believed that guilt itself, is not a 'real' emotion. It is more a sense of self judgement; that comes from knowing or feeling that you have done something wrong. The emotional aspect that affects us I believe, is the feelings of pain, remorse and regret that guilt elicits from us.

I believe that we tend to think of guilt in very stark terms of black and white. We know that we feel guilty when we do something that we know is wrong. The simplest type of guilt is the sort we get when we have broken a window, or taken something without paying for it. But most guilt is not like that. The most damaging and destructive guilty feelings of all are not inspired by by any great crime. But by the subtle and destructive feelings of self criticism, and feelings of inadequacy. Often inspired by our inability to live up to the expectations of others. More powerfully perhaps is also the knowledge that we may have hurt or damaged someone else. Even if it was not intentional.

Is guilt something you have experienced in your life, becoming caught up in a negative cycle of mental self-talk to the detriment of your emotional and physical well-being? What - if anything have you been able to do, to work through those feelings? Do you believe that there is a transformative way of processing guilt/remorse, and releasing it that has worked for you? Do you believe that guilt and remorse are the same things - or different. And in what way? I would love to hear your thoughts on this.

Love and light
Kaz

[gruntal]

A classic misplaced example of guilt might be getting fired from a job because of an actual mistake only to learn later the boss was having severe cash flow problems and just needed an excuse to trim down his workforce. Before he bankrupted the business. How many sad stories about people going to their grave and never knowing what really happened?

Even very insignificant things like misunderstandings. In retrospect you wish you had set the record straight but only after so many years pass did it occur to you there was even a problem. At some level we learn not to judge rather things happened by spite or just an oversight. On another level we yearn - at least an intellectual like me - to have as much information as possible and be able to dispense it out when needed. That is why I may come off as the reluctant teacher. Not having a lot of feelings I value knowledge as a way to avoid making so many mistakes.

Sometimes just a little confession - a gentle suggestion - even a slight observation - can make a huge difference to one that honesty did not know the truth.

[donq]

Hi Karen,

As for me, my guilt often comes from not doing something (that I think it's right). For exmaple, when someone I met on the street asking me for a money to buy food for his kids. Even I knew that he lied I still gave him money because I might feel guilty if I didn't. The point is no way I could know for sure if he didn't lie. And what if he didn't lie, how about those poor kids? 
I think that spiritual conscience is more complicated than normal conscience, isn't it?       

As for me, my guilt often comes from not doing something (that I think it's right). For exmaple, when someone asked me for a money to buy food for his kids. Even I knew that he lied I still gave him money because I might feel guilty if I didn't. The point is no way what if he didn't lie? No way I could know for sure, right?
I think that spiritual conscience is more complicated than normal conscience, isn't it?       

[mojomojo]

Guilt, is what we call that feeling, of unworthiness, that others infringe upon us, in times of accidents or mistakes, so others can feel better about themselves.
It is also the tool of choice used by those who would like to hold power over us, as demonstrated by the Catholic Church through history.
It is one of the most useless, harmful emotions, and rarely if ever can benefit the victim.
Has someone sitting in guilt, ever erased a wrong doing, if I sit here feeling miserable about myself, for long enough, have I made amends.
If we do something wrong, we can apologise or try to make amends, or own up to what we have done, sitting in guilt, keeps us stuck, stuck in the past.
Taking on guilt ourselves, I would argue, is a programmed response.

[baangus]

Feb 7, 2016 12:38:31 GMT sparklekaz said:

Do you believe that guilt and remorse are the same things - or different. And in what way? 

There is love and there is fear. Generally speaking, remorse is born of love, guilt of fear. Remorse is self-reflective understanding, the higher self lovingly nudging and educating the lower self. Guilt is mired in self-destructive lower self ego activity. My observation.

[sparklekaz]

The issue of guilt and remorse is so multi layered isn't it. George talks about a man getting fired from his job for a mistake. The man may have gone on to suffer great guilt and remorse that his mistake cost his good name, the financial security of his family and a myriad of consequences that this caused in his life. The employer, used a mistake he may have an any other time over looked or satisfied himself with a reprimand to his employee - to pare down his workforce. Did he feel guilty I wonder, that he allowed someone to believe it was entirely his own fault that he was sacked. I suppose, the upside of this might be, that both men feeling remorse for the part they played in this situation, went on to do things differently in life. The boss making better choices, using more caution, so he did not bankrupt another business. The employee, choosing to take more pride and care in his work, so that never again, would be be sacked for incompetence or bad workmanship. Who can tell. Both may have learnt nothing from the experience and spent the rest of their lives feeling failures, and wallowing in their guilt, rather than using it to improve their lives and experiences with other people.

Robert, you say that guilt is a tool, that is wielded by others to have power, control over people. I can see that other people do love to make others feel guilty, and use it to get their own way. But I think that is a simplistic view. For if people had not got something to feel guilty about in the first place, there would be nothing that other people could use against them, would there? As far as the church is concerned, yes, I agree that the whole concept of sin was over-used. And what is sinful to one person, may not be seen as sinful to another. Depending on that persons cultural background and belief system. But on the whole, thou shalt not kill, steal, lie etc, are basically good fundimental moral codes to live by arn't they? We could single out different times in history where religious zeal has been used to the extreme. But those are obvious, and stand out, and most would agree that they were wrong.

I totally agree with you when you said "It is one of the most useless, harmful emotions, and rarely if ever can benefit the victim. Has someone sitting in guilt, ever erased a wrong doing, if I sit here feeling miserable about myself, for long enough, have I made amends. If we do something wrong, we can apologize or try to make amends, or own up to what we have done, sitting in guilt, keeps us stuck, stuck in the past." However, I don't agree with you when you say "Taking on guilt ourselves, I would argue, is a programmed response." Do we have to be taught right from wrong? Are we incapable of deciding for ourselves? It's an interesting question. Does empathy, compassion have to be taught, or is it an inherent quality of the person? Yes, culturally we will have different idea's of what is acceptable or not. But where actions such as cruelty, theft, deceit etc is concerned, would our response to this be a universal thing?

Baangus - you said "There is love and there is fear. Generally speaking, remorse is born of love, guilt of fear. Remorse is self-reflective understanding, the higher self lovingly nudging and educating the lower self. Guilt is mired in self-destructive lower self ego activity. My observation." I do agree with what you've said. I'm interested to know why you think guilt is born of fear. Is this through fear of consequences. Where does the fear aspect come from?

Love and light
Kaz

[baangus]

Feb 10, 2016 15:28:30 GMT sparklekaz said:

I do agree with what you've said. I'm interested to know why you think guilt is born of fear. Is this through fear of consequences. Where does the fear aspect come from?

Just my own understanding Kaz, something I came to back in the 80's. I had the epiphany that the opposite of love isn't hate, it's fear. Every situation offers us the opportunity to choose a response. And we choose to respond in love or in fear. That holds true for me in everything. Guilt is a form of hiding and avoidance, it's fear of standing tall in life and facing one's (what they see as) inadequacies, knowing all the world will be able to see them in all their uncertainty. My next love-and-fear epiphany came years later via Marianne Williamson:

Our deepest fear is not that we are inadequate. Our deepest fear is that we are powerful beyond measure. It is our light, not our darkness that most frightens us. We ask ourselves, Who am I to be brilliant, gorgeous, talented, fabulous? Actually, who are you not to be? You are a child of God. Your playing small does not serve the world. There is nothing enlightened about shrinking so that other people won't feel insecure around you. We are all meant to shine, as children do. We were born to make manifest the glory of God that is within us. It's not just in some of us; it's in everyone. And as we let our own light shine, we unconsciously give other people permission to do the same. As we are liberated from our own fear, our presence automatically liberates others.

[sparklekaz]

That is one of my all time favourite quotes too Baangus

Though sadly, many do hide their light, or shrink to make themselves so small that they will not draw attention to themselves. I really saddens me to say this, but there are people who will be deliberately cruel to anyone with a good and kind heart. I often wonder what kind of a world do we live in. Where softness, gentleness and kindness is seen as a weakness to be taken advantage of.

Love and light
Kaz

[baangus]

Feb 10, 2016 17:41:27 GMT sparklekaz said:

I really saddens me to say this, but there are people who will be deliberately cruel to anyone with a good and kind heart. I often wonder what kind of a world do we live in. Where softness, gentleness and kindness is seen as a weakness to be taken advantage of.

Are you speaking of people who project guilt onto others? Because guilt can be projected outwards as well, it's not always directed inwards. My way of coming to terms with the world is to change my surroundings. I had a number of people in my life from age 23 to 45 who projected their stuff in my direction, and made me feel guilty for any number of things. None of those people are in my life anymore, I made a series of very conscious choices and made sure of that. It was key to my healing after my stress illness.

[mojomojo]

Guilt is frequently viewed as a virtue, as a high sense of responsibility and morality,
I have to disagree, I see guilt as the greatest destroyer of emotional energy, it leaves you feeling immobilised in the present, by something that happened in the past.
It is one of the biggest destroyers of self esteem, individuality, creativity and personal development.


Kaz said, But I think that is a simplistic view.
For if people had not got something to feel guilty about in the first place, there would be nothing that other people could use against them, would there?

Doing something wrong does not automatically trigger guilt, it is other people's negative response, be that in the past (programmed) or present, that causes the experience of guilt.
Guilt is a conditioned response, not an authentic emotion, a child does not feel guilty, unless punished and made experience guilt.


Kaz said, But on the whole, thou shalt not kill, steal, lie etc, are basically good fundamental moral codes to live by, aren't they.

Conscience, the sense of right and wrong within the individual, when our conscience tells us we have done something wrong, we may face it, try to make amends, and learn from the mistake.
Staying consumed with guilt, however, will keep you from moving forward in a positive and productive way.


Kaz said, Do we have to be taught right from wrong?, are we incapable of deciding for ourselves.

While empathy and compassion maybe inherent qualities, influenced by our upbringing and society, I think we can all honestly say, learning right from wrong was an aspect of growing up.



Remorse, taking responsibility for one's actions, to try to heal any damage done to another, comes from a place of empathy and love.

Remorse leads to constructive action.

Guilt, leads to self destructive tendencies, comes from a place of fear.

[sparklekaz]

Hi Robert,

You said "Guilt is frequently viewed as a virtue, as a high sense of responsibility and morality, I have to disagree." Did I say it was a virtue, or are you saying 'other people' see it as a virtue? I have to say I don't see guilt as a virtue. Virtues to me are qualities such as integrity, kindness, honour, decency etc. I see guilt as a feeling that comes from believing one has done something wrong, or failed to do the right thing. All of course according to their own inner moral compass.

You said "Doing something wrong does not automatically trigger guilt, it is other people's negative response, be that in the past (programmed) or present, that causes the experience of guilt. Guilt is a conditioned response, not an authentic emotion, a child does not feel guilty, unless punished and made experience guilt."

I agree, doing something wrong, for some people will trigger no guilt at all. But those people either do not believe they have done something wrong, as in they believe that have a right to do what they do, irrespective of whether or hurts or harms another. Or they have no conscience. A sociapath. not having a conscience, none at all, no feelings of guilt or remorse no matter what they do, no limiting sense of concern of the ... whole life, no matter what kind of selfish, lazy, harmful, or immoral action they have taken. I know that is the extreme of the spectrum. Can you imagine what kind of world we would live in, if everyone behaved like that. It is a horrible thought. So while I agree that some people may only feel guilty about what they have done, because someone else makes them feel they should feel guilty. In my experience, we only allow people to have that power over us, if deep down we believe 'they may have a point'.

I would agree that children are taught right from wrong when it comes to what is socially acceptable. They are taught about respecting personal boundaries etc. That it's not ok to bash the kid who has a toy you want over the head and take it from him - for example. But, I do think we learn also by observation - from role models. Grandparents, parents, teachers, etc. But I have to say that I think 'programmed' is a strong word. I tend to liken it more to a skill we are taught to help us to interact in society in a safe and respectful way. As opposed to anti-social behaviour. Programming sounds a bit like brainwashing, where someone does something blindly, as if they have no thought or opinion on the matter. Do you get what I mean! I think being taught good manners. To have respect for others, to behave in a civilized manner, is not conditioning. Some things I believe we should 'just know' are wrong, regardless of whether or not someone else has told us, it's ok to do it.

You said " science, the sense of right and wrong within the individual, when our conscience tells us we have done something wrong, we may face it, try to make amends, and learn from the mistake. Staying consumed with guilt, however, will keep you from moving forward in a positive and productive way." I totally agree with you on this Robert. I see feelings of guilt as being a red flag, that makes us look closer at what we've done. Re-examine our thoughts and feelings about it and if appropriate, realize that we either, spoke or acted in a way that we regret. The whole point of this I feel, like you is to learn from it. As you say, try to make ammends if we can, if not, move forward making a conscious decision to do better.

One of the most valuable lessons I've learnt from experiences of guilt and remorse. Is that, the times I made poor choices or acted badly, was when I gave in to extremes of emotion. I have learnt patience. To examine my own motives more, before acting. Rather than 'reacting'. And last of all, but most importantly I feel, is that I've finally come to grips with self-forgiveness. I'm human, I make mistakes. And if I, would willingly forgive someone else for hurting me or making a mistake, then who am I to withold that same understanding and compassion, towards myself?

You said "Remorse, taking responsibility for one's actions, to try to heal any damage done to another, comes from a place of empathy and love. Remorse leads to constructive action.Guilt, leads to self destructive tendencies, comes from a place of fear." Your words echo Baangus's. I couldn't agree more. Very well said.

Love and light
Kaz

[gwutzi]

To my knowledge; Guilt has no place in a persons life for it is the condemnation of something that we could turn around in a moments time, if we but have knowledge and ability of it to do and go the extra mile.
Remorse tho seems to be good for humility and for one to learn how to humbled oneself as it gives a positive outlook a chance of change of our future dealings with others or matters that we feel remorse.
Guilt is the 2nd chakra's negative downside and it comes against the many things we can do by setting us into a set of bondage and lower estate then the one we normally should be in onto.

So i see no place to be given to guilt but rather to change and the feedback and remorse to better our wrong dealings and mistakes in a better future. Else we step to the zone of being kicked by a matter, rather then stand nodding and with our heads up high to better ourself and relinquish the illusion and bondage of guilt.

Pls do not consider to fall into guilt and speak against it the moment comes in with the mind of reasoning which sets all people free from it an many other things, ponder and mingle within yourself as it is the right placement to contemplate over things that are harmful to us, till it is done nicely and rightly in the manner of proper feedback.
Grow and cultivate yourself in not accepting guilts downfall of mental distress and belittlement, but knowing your just as much a human as the next person and life didn't quiet come with a manual, so embrace your spiritual grown in the manner that you can cope with such distressful guilt and bring your awareness into the rightful mind of Christ (anointed one), who teaches that the truth shall make you free. Anointed to give it another shot without the intoxication of guilt

[mojomojo]

Hello Kaz,

Yes, I do not see guilt as a virtue, in anyway, shape or form, and no, I wasn't implying you said that, either.

I use the word programming to describe the automatic reactions, people can have to certain scenarios in life, which are stored in the subconscious, and are the result of past experiences.
If a child experienced chastisement and guilt from a parent in its earlier years, later in life, just by making a mistake, even with no one around, feelings of guilt can emerge, that is a programmed response, from past experiences.
Mind programming is a fascinating subject in itself and makes great reading, I think people would be horrified to the extent it is used.

I'am a great believer in doing our own internal work, it can be a very hard process and for some far too painful to approach.
But the benefits of getting through it are immense, for me it is the bedrock of spirituality, and should be a programme available to everyone, and is a great way of removing all the baggage, programming and conditioning that doesn't serve us.


You said, we only allow people to have power over us, if deep down we feel they have a point.

Nobody has power over us, unless we give them our consent, nobody has power over us unless we hand it over to them.
So if someone convinces us they have a point, they have power over us?
That is one of the strategies of a sociopath, again another fascinating subject, (please don't think, I'am implying, you are a sociopath, I'm not, in any way, shape or form.).
But, again, I think people would be horrified if they were aware how common it is, the business world is full of sociopaths.

Forgiveness, I agree with you totally, Kaz, self forgiveness is extremely important, we wouldn't even begin to work on ourselves without it.
But yet, you see it everyday, people trying to destroy themselves, through self hatred, ingrained in their mind at an early age, by the negative actions and words of those, who should have been supplying love, which is why I often use the phrase, "the ignorance of parents" and yes, I'am aware it is not always the parents.

Again doing your own inner work, removes all this, and allows one to reclaim their unique individuality and to step forward in life as an expressive, creative aspect of God.

[baangus]

Interestingly, I watched something yesterday where a woman was struggling badly with feelings of guilt over something she did that caused the death of another. I immediately thought of this thread, and how impulsive and dispassionate my comments about guilt were. People who suffer from guilt, suffer real pain. Certainly initially anyway, a guilt response is a very human reaction. I need to exhibit a lot more caring and understanding in my replies. (But I'm not feeling guilty about it.)

[sparklekaz]

Hi Baangus,

I don't think your dispassionate about it at all. When we are discussing something like this, unless we are currently in the throes of an issue that's causing us personally feelings of guilt, it is hard to connect with the emotion behind it. But, yes, intense feelings of guilt are probably one of the most painful of human emotions. As joy and love is 'up there' as one of the most wonderful emotional experiences. Guilt in it's extreme form, to me comes pretty close to matching that of the pain of grief and loss.

I think someone said, maybe Robert. That he believed that guilt wasn't an emotion as such. But a behavioural/mental issue. I disagree with this. Guilt can be gut-wrenchingly painful. That has to be an emotional response - doesn't it? Obviously, I'm not talking about the more superficial aspects of guilt like say 'jumping the queue' or 'taking the last biscuit, knowing it's someone elses'. I'm talking about the real serious stuff. Though having said that. Who am I or anyone else to judge what should be deemed as serious or not, to another person.

Guilt can come in many forms. And the degree to which it affects someone's life will vary also. As in the lady you speak about on the programme. Being responsible for or believing you were responsible for the death of another person, has to be top of that list. Or in a less direct way, knowing you are responsible for bringing great unhappiness to another, no matter how much you try to justify your reasons for doing it. I think it would take a pretty heartless person, not to be affected by that to some degree.

Someone said on another thread, that who are we to judge ourselves or others. Don't worry about it. There is no right or wrong. That Karma will take care of it! To me that smacks of abrogation of responsibility. Isn't it 'our job' to monitor our own behaviour? I actually believe that karma is in action all the time. As in, actions that bring serious consequences happen very quickly. And in a way, instead of having to wait to for want of a better word, put right what we did wrong in a previous life. We are given the opportunity to amend, atone or learn the lesson in this life-time. Guilt can be for many a catalyst. The 'wake up call' they needed to divert the course their life is taking, in what may be a very self-destructive, selfish path.

Staying stuck in guilt is, as, you and Robert have said, very damaging and self-limiting. Becoming trapped in a cycle of self-recrimination, and fear of making another mistake, achieves nothing. There is a element of self-pity in this too. We cannot change the past, no matter how much we might wish we could. For me personally, I believe the best thing we can do is learn from the experience and use it to become better people. Someone once said, a mistake only becomes a mistake, if we learn nothing from it. Which makes a lot of sense to me.

Love and light
Kaz

[baangus]

Feb 11, 2016 13:30:42 GMT sparklekaz said:

Staying stuck in guilt is, as, you and Robert have said, very damaging and self-limiting. 

Yes, that's very good to point out, the difference between initial feelings of guilt versus prolonged dwelling on things. Someone I know died early, I believe in large part as a result of years of guilt and blaming himself for the breakup of his marriage. I've had a lot of first-hand experience screaming at someone to stop feeling sorry for yourself, thus my initial response to this topic.