Gun Ownership

[subsidinginsanity]

The recent tragedy in Aurora has got me very strongly considering purchasing a gun. I have never owned one, and I have generally been against gun ownership. I do believe that it changes the way a person thinks when he/she carries one. On the other hand had I been in that theater at the time I would have wanted one. As much as I hate violence I would have tried to shoot the guy to protect myself and the others.

ABC ran a story on the frequency of mass killings in America. The frequency in going up. Since the Virgina Tech shootings in 2007 there have been 52 incidents where 3 or more people have been killed. A total of 221 people have been killed. One man actually opened fire in a Pittsburgh gym because he couldn't get a date. No joke. Basically, our society is becoming more violent every year.

abcnews.go.com/WNT/video?id=9020231

At this point I'm still on the fence, but the more I think about it the closer I move towards purchasing a gun. I realize that some here will be strongly against it and that's fine. If you could share your views and give me a reason not to start carrying one I'd appreciate it. My heart tells me to be completely non-violent ah la Gandhi, my head tells me that our society has degenerated to a point where it may be stupid not to carry one. This is kind of my last ditch effort to resist the temptation. Any opinions are welcome.

[sparklekaz]

Hi Subsiding,

I can well imagine how frightening it must be to live in a 'gun culture', society.

We have much tighter laws and regulations here in the UK with regard to having a gun. It is not something private citizens can get their hands on without being thoroughly vetted. I am not saying we don't have gun incidents in this country because we do, but they are rare.

Even our police do not carry a gun, unless they are part of a special unit which would be called especially to deal with an armed assailant. I know you have to do what is right for you, but I feel becoming a gun holder will not solve the problem. I think I read somewhere that in the USA, the statistics for accidental death by gunshot are very high. What are your thoughts on that?

I personally feel that guns should be banned. I know that people feel they are protecting themselves by having one in America. But isn't it just perpetuating the problem? You know what they say also subsiding. If you are going to have a gun, you have to be prepared to use it. Ask yourself if you really could?

I know we are very lucky here in the UK. We do have crime and all the other problems you have in America. But the use of guns is not the norm, because of our strict gun laws. If it works here, I can't see why it can't work elsewhere.

Love and light
Kaz

[gruntal]

I am tempted to disqualify myself on the subject of fire arms in as much as I might be slightly preduced about them. I only own about er 4 I think.

Dozen.

Each one has an intesting history of design and manufacture. I have fired most of them in the past. I would go tomarrow but the local shooting range has been closed down. Different calibers, different sizes, some are sporting and some are ex-police or millitary. Very fascinating!

As to their lethal or practical use: I don't think that knowledge comes all that fast or easy. I don't claim to be an "elite"; I just had the interest for ages and thought about it for a long time and gradually aquired facts figures and experience over the years just for the fun of it.

If the time spent learning about what you aquired and how to deal with it seems burdensome I would NOT advise becoming armed. On the other hand some things do lead to an encreased awareness of your responsibilites, rights, privaliges; and of course your freedom to enjoy things the others are mayby too afraid to tackle. Yes freedom I am talking about and it is about political as well as spiritual things too. No matter how bad things get I tend to think this world is losing it's sense of freedom in the quest for safety and security.


Freedom is much misunderstood and abused and can become tragic but I do not think it is going away. On all levels. Where I live I do not even have the freedom to aquire a Concealed Weapons Permit. Poor me! You do. It is easier to be where everything is decided for you. That also works on many levels.

Just remember your decision is your freedom to decide just that. People make bad decisions but I do not ever hear of people regretting their freedom to make them. That probably is why we still live where we are and tend to give the others their freedoms too as much as possible . And I do think that is very spiritual as that is how I would like to be treated.

[subsidinginsanity]

Aug 18, 2012 22:18:05 GMT sparklekaz said:

Hi Subsiding ...

I know it's tough to get a gun in the UK, but I don't necessarily believe that it's any safer there. According to several sources Britain has higher rates of violent crime per capita than even the U.S.

www.dailymail.co.uk/news/article-1196941/The-violent-country-Europe-Britain-worse-South-Africa-U-S.html

Personally, I don't think access to guns dictates a societies propensity towards violence. Here in America the gun advocates try to sell us on the notion that more guns = less violent crime. Likewise I think that's rubbish. China for example has many times our population and much less violent crime. They also forbid their citizens to carry guns. Whereas Texas is one of America's most gun happy states and their violent crime statistics are consistently above the national average, and they even have the death penalty.

I think it has to do with the culture and how people are brought up. The media probably has a lot to do with it. I hate the way our media sensationalizes the shooter every time we have a mass killing not to mention the constant stream of violent movies and music.

I'm with you that there should be no guns. I just don't know how that is ever going to happen. If they are outlawed then only outlaws will have them. Again, the solution has to start in addressing the factors that influence people towards violence in the first place.

How do I feel about accidental shootings? I think they are awful tragedies. I don't think it would be a problem for me though as I have no children and I would take the necessary classes to become competent with it.

There are so many different ways of looking at it. On the one hand it can be said that carrying a gun changes the way you think, and it can also change your life literally. Pulling out a gun in public increases your chances of getting shot, and even if it's a false alarm you can still count on the police being called and an investigation done. I work in the health care field and such actions could potentially end my career. On the other hand if I'm unfortunate enough to be around when the next mass killer starts shooting do I run and get shot to death, or do I have a gun and shoot back?

Basically I'm debating whether carrying one will bring me peace of mind or rob me of it. If I do get one it will probably be an action based more on fear than on love and such actions are usually not beneficial in the long run. I ask myself if Jesus would carry heat. I believe that when one achieves a certain level of spiritual advancement then Spirit guides that person in everything, so it's really about trusting Spirit I guess. So much to consider ...

[subsidinginsanity]

Aug 19, 2012 4:00:19 GMT gruntal said:

I am tempted to disqualify myself on the subject ...

What type of gun would you recommend for self-defense purposes? If I decide to get one I'll want one small enough to conceal, yet strong enough to pierce body armor.

[gruntal]

Not to flog a dead horse but: even my limeted research reveals body armor would NOT protect anybody from recieving broken limbs from getting hit by a decent sized pistol bullet. It isn't secret knowledge but it isn't widely taught either. It should be! People should be told things and sometimes they arn't and they dont realise the truth. The truth is that would be like putting boxing gloves on Mohammid Ali and saying: "go ahead and hit me I dare you!" "Your hands are padded so I won't feel a thing!" You might not die but you wouldn't get up for a long time either. Guns are AWFULL but then all the laws we bring upon ourselves are awfull too. They HAVE to be to have any "bite" and mean anything.

The idea isn't actually to kill but to defend. The latter is much more difficult to acheive. A suitable class might be very enlightening. An honest instructor would tell you realistically what to expect. You could never know too much on the subject to be able to decide what you wanted or what might go wrong.

The worst thing you could do would be to make a mistake out of ignorance which is why I (perversly) find posts like these so fascinating. I think spiritually goes hand and hand with research and freedom. Morality also comes into play too. None of it I find contradictory. I just don't know how to dictate what the others should do.

[sparklekaz]

Hi subsiding,

I don't think I said that the UK does not have a high crime rate per say, simply that we do not have a high crime rate related to Gun offences.

I agree with Gruntal, people should have the right to choose to own a gun or not. But if there is a problem with guns in a country, I believe that shows that the easy access to them is a contributory factor to the gun being responsible for many gun accidents, maiming and murders. In the USA 39% of its citizens own a gun, whereas in the UK it is 4%. In the UK gun ownership is licensed and many belong to gun clubs, where gun use is connected to sport, not protection.

I lived in wales for a long time, and air rifles and ordinary rifles were owned by local farmers. Hunting and using guns for keeping down the population of rabbits which destroy crops and foxes who kill livestock are the reason for this. Also pheasant shooting is a sport. I find these activities abhorrent to be honest because I believe all life is precious. But I say this to show you that I have been around people who use them. They all have a very real respect for these weapons and keep them locked away in special gun cabinets.When they travel the guns are kept unloaded and open so avoid any accidents. When they apply for their licenses their backgrounds are checked out and they must divulge any conditions such as depression or mental health problems.

From what you have said George, you have owned guns for sport and target practice, which is a different thing from getting one for protection. Most people I am guessing who get shot in violent crimes have it happen away from the home. If you keep your gun locked away in a safe place, would it save you if you were shot going out to dinner, shopping or visiting the cinema. Would you carry it with you at all times? Having to think if protecting oneself to the extent you see danger or the potential for it at every turn would quickly become a anxiety state where a person would be seeing danger or the potential for it, everywhere. Could anyone live like that without it seriously affecting their mental health?

I could get run over tomorrow, but I don't let it stop me from walking the streets or crossing the road. I could be involved in a car accident, but it doesn't stop me from riding in a car. Do you see where I am going with this? All we can do is take precautions, by being 'careful' and 'aware'. At the end of the day, non of us knows what is around the corner, but to live our lives in fear of something bad happening is not the way to live.

I believe freedom to make our own choices is important, I just don't believe carrying a gun or any kind of weapon is the answer to violent crime. It just perpetuates the problem. Fighting fire with fire just fans the flames and is not spiritual. There are some strange people around and I often hear people arguing and getting worked up. It would be very easy in the heat of one of these disagreements to go into your house, pick up your gun and shoot someone, because you are having a bad day and don't agree with what someone is saying or they have offended you in some way.

I understand how someone would want to protect themselves, but for me having a gun would not be the way I would do that. I don't know if someone could just use a gun to maim or disarm someone. How can you be sure that shot to the leg or arm would just injure and not cause someone to bleed to death. In the heat of the moment, I doubt taking careful aim would be upmost in our minds. What if you got into a struggle and someone got your own gun away from you and shot you with it. I believe, even contemplating having a gun is no matter how we try to justify it, taking a step away from who we are and becoming the very type of person we are afraid of.

Just my thoughts.

Love and light
Kaz

[subsidinginsanity]

Hi Kaz,

I think you are probably right that in countries where guns are banned there is less gun violence. The thing is banning guns does nothing to stop people from wanting to commit crimes and acts of violence.

I respect your position. For a long time I held a very similar point of view. Maybe I still do. Right now I'm not sure about much Thanks for your responses.

[gruntal]

I probably ought to lock my doors at night but I usually don't bother. Being able to defend yourself means one less worry about depending on the others for something and it that respect I sleep very soundy. I do fret about the "system" and the pople that support it. What crazy law will they propose next? Do they ever think it might backfire and cause more harm then good? And what is the human race becoming to let their leaders do that to them?

I hope I have planted a few seeds over the years. No matter how cruel and vicious an answere seems to be if the alturnitives do not work I tend to think that speaks for itself. And as always that works on many levels. If, on the spiritulality forums, I came across as an angry belligerant person it is only because some of the things I saw were too naive to actually work in the real world. In that I am totally unrepentent.

P.S. My lady friend asked about my Rossi 38spl snub nosed revolver and I said: "No". "It mine". "Keep your hands off it!". I think she still likes me and doesn't think I nutty assa fruitcake. But sometimes you need to put your foot down and that is the person we are or need to be.

[subsidinginsanity]

Aug 20, 2012 16:04:26 GMT gruntal said:

P.S. My lady friend asked about my Rossi 38spl snub nosed revolver and I said: "No". "It mine". "Keep your hands off it!". I think she still likes me and doesn't think I nutty assa fruitcake. But sometimes you need to put your foot down and that is the person we are or need to be.

I would like to have that problem.

[subsidinginsanity]

Well good golly Ms Molly! Guess who supports owning a gun? None other than old Dalai Lama himself !!! The winner of the Nobel Peace Prize and the spiritual leader of one of the most peaceful major religions on this planet.

In 2001, he answered the question of a girl in a Seattle school by saying that it is permissible to shoot someone with a gun in self-defense if that person was "trying to kill you," and he emphasized that the shot should not be fatal.

Dalai Lama

en.wikipedia.org/wiki/14th_Dalai_Lama#Controversies

That tears it! I'm getting a gun.

[wayne]

Try to look closer at what he was saying and not by taking his words literally. I have heard from high beings say something similar- if you are at risk of losing your life at the hands of another, then foolhardy you if you do not defend yourself. This means if you are at risk, then by defending yourself you are totally justified for it, and there will be no blemish put upon you for such an action. But only if there is NO OTHER WAY.

[subsidinginsanity]

The truth is I don't even understand the Dalai Lama's answer. If somebody is trying to shoot you to death why would you want to shoot them but not fatally? All that does is allow them to kill you. I'm not sure where you live, but it seems to me that America is becoming more violent all the time. Since the shooting massacre in Aurora there have already been several others.

I never used to want a gun. I didn't really think I'd ever own one. I even used to argue with people against gun ownership, but it just seems like this country is going crazy. This decision is of course based on fear, and that bothers me. I usually try to not make decisions based on fear, but what's the alternative? Get shot to death by the next mass killer? Here is a link to the Aurora massacre.

www.huffingtonpost.com/2012/07/21/aurora-shooting-shock-sad_n_1691538.html

Would those higher beings you speak of approve of shooting this guy to death under those circumstances? I hope one day Spirit will guide me to the point where I won't need a gun. I've never known a Spiritual master to carry one.

[subsidinginsanity]

They're also useful for warding off pitbull attacks. That's another problem in America.

[cyberangel]

Guns were invented as weapons. Any weapon, in my view, can only be used in one of two ways...to either to take control or to be controlled, and in my belief, neither one is right.

[subsidinginsanity]

cyberangel, if you had been in that movie theater at the time would you have wanted to take control of the situation?

[cyberangel]

Subsidinginsanity, Of course I would want to defend my loved ones and myself but at what cost? Would my fear and fight for survival end up in me adding more casualties or even fatalities? Would I be able to live with myself knowing that I had shot someone by mistake out of fear? This of course is all hypothetical because I was not in that situation so it is easy for me to say that I am in no rush to run out and arm myself.

But likewise, should the horrific and tragic event that took place stop people from going out to a movie, to school, to a place of worship or travelling on a bus or a plane? Should people carry guns for all situations? What if my gun was taken from me and used to harm me or even worse someone else! How would that make me feel? Fear feeds hate and hate feeds fear it’s a vicious circle. Should we arm our teenagers and kids out of fear? Where do we draw the line?

Something tragic and horrific happened at the hands of a psychopath and sadly it happens on a daily basis all over the world but does that make me want to run out and purchase a gun so I am armed and ready for any such event? These are all questions I can answer from the safety of my own home and are all speculative.

The question you should really ask is how on earth did that lunatic manage to get a gun? If Americans want to defend the 2nd amendment then unfortunately they run the risk of having to live with the consequences of bearing arms to ALL civilians. I am aware that I could quite possibly be in the minority in my beliefs.

[sparklekaz]

Its good to see that this debate is still rolling.

It brought to mind the last gun massacre that happened in the UK. This happened in in the Scottish town of Dunblane on 13 March 1996. The gunman, 43-year-old Thomas Hamilton, entered the school armed with four handguns, shooting and killing sixteen children and one adult before committing suicide. Along with the 1987 Hungerford massacre and the 2010 Cumbria shootings, it remains one of the worst criminal acts involving firearms in the history of the United Kingdom.

Public debate subsequent to these events centred on gun-control laws, including media-driven public petitions calling for a ban on private ownership of handguns and an official enquiry, the Cullen Report. In response to this debate, the Firearms (Amendment) Act 1997 and the Firearms (Amendment) (No. 2) Act 1997 were enacted, which effectively made private ownership of handguns illegal in the United Kingdom.

This is how it was handled in the UK. Instead of people rushing out to buy guns they decided to petition the government to change the law. This is just a suggestion, but wouldn't it make more sense for the people of America to do the same thing? It will not resolve the problem of gun violence all together but it has to reduce the risk.
Especially in light of the fact subsiding, that the problem is only getting much worse.

Love and light
Kaz

[subsidinginsanity]

cyberangel, I to ask myself those very same questions, and about a dozen more. Probably many of those concerns could be alleviated at least to a degree by taking the proper classes, gaining a clear interpretation of the law, and becoming competent with the gun.

I recently discovered that Monaco and the island of Palau both have a murder rate of 0.

en.wikipedia.org/wiki/List_of_countries_by_intentional_homicide_rate

If things continue to worsen the way they have been I can see myself one day moving out of this country. It seems that sticking to the good areas of town and not pissing off the wrong people are no longer adequate to stay safe. When I do get a gun my one hope is that I'll never have to use it outside of a firing range.

[gruntal]

I remember dimly the anti-gun hysteria here in 1964 when our president John F Kennedy was assassinated. It got much worst in 1968 when Martin Luther King and Robert Kennedy were assassinated. Many other incidents like the assassination of John Lennon occurred. I have given up arguing about firearms and gun ownership. Facts have flown out the window faster then I can refute them.

I would only point out quite eloquently millions of Americans have firearms and do not misuse them. Almost everywhere (but not in California) you can legally (via well defined rules and regulations) carry them loaded concealed on the city streets. The trouble caused by that is virtually non-existent. What was supposed to have been a receipt for disaster actually coincided with a dramatic drop in the murder and crime rate!

Again this is not an argument; it is a spiritual and practical fact of life: when you deny somebody something you are also making yourself responsible for the consequences. Indeed the very statement "people are essentially divine beings" implies you trust them enough to have the freedom to be and possess potentially dangerous things. Banning guns and pit bulls ( I am knee deep in those nasty buggers here) and rather a lot more things is just not going to happen in a free society. Our salvation will not depend on the cessation of animate things undesirable or doting on how bad and dangerous they are. In that I am very optimistic things will get a lot better. And it won't be because we all put ourselves into a self imposed straight jacket!

P.S. I do think DEATH STALKER scorpions should not be imported here because if too many of them got loose they might become acclimated into our climate and thrive in the wild (across the street). So I am not totally nutty assa fruitcake!

[subsidinginsanity]

Kaz, the way I look at it is this. America has always had a love affair with guns, and has had a problem with gun violence for much of it's history. I'd probably support a gun ban petition just as an experiment. What we are trying is not working, so lets try something else. I just wonder whether or not it would start another civil war. Americans love their guns way more than the British do.

[subsidinginsanity]

gruntal, your comments remind me of the old saying

"Whatever one resists persists."

It seems like we are fighting so many different wars i.e. the war on drugs, the war on crime, the war on obesity, the war on terrorism, the war on dandruff etc. When was the last time we ever actually won a war? Mother Theresa once said

"I will never go to a anti-war demonstration, but sign me up for the next peace rally."

There's so many different ways of looking at it ...

Aug 23, 2012 21:55:00 GMT gruntal said:

Indeed the very statement "people are essentially divine beings" implies you trust them enough to have the freedom to be and possess potentially dangerous things.

Lets not get carried away. We are Divine but we are asleep in the ego. Do I trust the ego with a gun? No, I do not. I hope your optimism is well founded. Great comments.

[gruntal]

As I understand my father visited Hiroshima very soon after we bombed it to oblivion but I have not yet found any records to prove this. I do know four years later I was born and it seems I grew up with constant warnings of impending nuclear holocaust. Well it never happened although we may never know why or how close we came to it.

Now for every dire news story is matching analysis using words like "unexpected" "unanticipated" "oddly" "inconsistent" "strange" . Am I the only one that doesn't think many of the predictions were false? Yes I am ultimately optimistic. As individuals and as societies we have constant chances to destroy ourselves and it never happens. But I also think many smaller fatal mistakes will nibble away at us until we experiment and find our way out. And again I am skeptical putting the human race collectively into a straight jacket will ever work even if we wanted too.

Good posts but I hope everybody understands the point: you can decide rather to use weapons or not but their existence or the knowledge of their existence is impossible to eradicate. Your fate will always be dependent of the others. It is not crazy to try to deal with this because you and only you alone are responsible for your life and well being.

[wayne]

LAND OF THE FREE - HOME OF THE BRAVE

I am finding your comments on guns fascinating, so fascinating in fact that I thought I would look up the U.S. Bill of Rights. So most of what is given below is from my own googling!

America’s second Amendment is the one that guarantees that people can bear arms to protect themselves. Also the Bill of Rights guarantees every U.S. citizen the right to own and bear firearms, and it doesn't say anything about how many. For the record the Bill of Rights is a sacred document. There's no other country in the world that has such a document as the Bill of Rights. And you know what its purpose is? To prevent the federal government from interfering with private citizens' rights. ... If you will read what the Founding Fathers wrote when they were writing it – Jefferson, Mason, Madison, Patrick Henry, Tom Paine – every one of them wrote at great length that they were talking about the individual rights of individual citizens."

Ok ... they wrote at great length to stop the government from interfering with citizens rights to carry arms - but at that time - not of todays time I'm sure. If we look close at the state of the world today, 2012, what comes into account here is the population, the drugs and alcohol which affects so many today on a world wide scale. Then you have those who are fragile of mind where they snap at the littlest of things. Or they watch some violent movie and think they are living it!!!
Maybe one day when the right politician with enough courage steps forward, he/she will change the gun laws.

[subsidinginsanity]

Aug 24, 2012 23:08:43 GMT wayne said:

Maybe one day when the right politician with enough courage steps forward, he/she will change the gun laws.

How would you change the gun laws?

[subsidinginsanity]

gruntal, I guess ultimately a gun is nothing more than a tool that can be used for good or evil. It's simply an option. To me, spirituality is an all-encompassing pursuit that can best be carried out if I'm healthy. Therefore, those who would take my health from me are interfering with my spiritual quest and must be stopped.

[subsidinginsanity]

Here's an idea. Is it possible to buy a gun out of love rather than fear? How about using one?

If a person is in the process of shooting people, is it not better for all those involved to shoot him? The fewer people he is able to shoot the less karma he'll have to work through. If I had a mind to start shooting people I would want somebody to shoot me before I ever got the first round off.

[gruntal]

Actually about 15 years ago a courageous politician in Florida noticed the police had sole discretion in issuing Concealed Weapon Permits and there were complaints it wasn't always fair. So the laws were changed to SHALL ISSUE after the required tests and forms and classes were signed off. When nothing untoward happened many of the others in other states clambered for the same and now almost every state in the U.S.A. (but not in my state) have the equivalent to SHALL ISSUE CCW permits. Apparently there were no regrets as the laws were never back changed to MAY ISSUE (or forget it issue) so far.

As I chanted over and over the natives are getting restless but is anybodies guess what the outcome will be. The gun slaughters here with out exception occur in GUN FREE ZONES. That has caused many to joke SITTING DUCK ZONES. What an awful thing to joke about! But the fact some want total gun bans and the other want total gun and self protection freedom doesn't leave much of a compromise possible.

Even the much maligned capital punishment argument of "would you like the pull the switch" is getting very unexpected replies: "yes and I demand the right to see the murderer of my daughter executed!". How blood thirsty! But it remains to be seen if this world is getting more mean and violent or if it was just too wimpy in the immediate past to deal with things unpleasant.

I look at it this way: it things get totally out of control and we do not destroy each other it means we did deserve the freedom and society we craved. But if everything was handed to us on a (safe) silver platter we won't ever know if we could have survived on our own.

[sparklekaz]

I am not sure I agree with a Gun being used for Good or Evil. A gun isn't like a knife which can be used to stab and kill or to save lives in the hand of a surgeon or create works of art or make furniture in the hands of a skilled craftsmen.

A gun's sole purpose is to fire a bullet at something or someone! Some might say it can be used as a deterrent. But ultimately it is a weapon of destruction, that is the purpose for which it was created. To try and justify it any other way I believe, is self deluding.

Just another thought to add to the mix. What we think, we attract!!

Love and light
Kaz

[subsidinginsanity]

Kaz, I agree that guns are instruments of destruction. They have no useful purpose other than to shoot something. But if deadly force is used to stop a mass killer then wouldn't the gun be considered a blessing? Suppose somebody in that movie theater had shot the killer as soon as he entered the theater.