Helping people in chat? (open topic!)

[gruntal]

I attend local meetings where things are discussed. Some personal and some unbelievable. It is understood this is or is supposed to be a group effort. You can also buy time for private sessions but usually it is still a member as such that does this. Assuming they want or need special attention.

There are also a number of well know internet gurus. They charge a lot but get results. They would go out of business if they were phonies.

The problem I have with teaching or healing is I never in a million years considered I would do or be capable of doing this. But I have learned so much in the past three years. It was at times hard fought wisdom because I had no background. If I learned anything it is that it takes many life times of challenge and charity to earn you a life time of competence. You just don't get the proper mind set over night. Nor can I or anybody else teach that.

So at this point in time I am more likely to prod or joke with people just to give them a nudge to THINK in a certain way. Besides I am much more the "teckie" and human relations don't interest me very much. If I can get some people to consider there are indeed answers out there then I have accomplished something.

For anything else I would recommend a professional. Or some dedicated mentor or life coach or teacher.

[mojomojo]

Throughout history there have been stories of people who have supposedly reached enlightenment, some spent their days passing on their knowledge, while others removed themselves and lived isolated lives, there can be many reasons for such a move, but one must consider the fact, that maybe they had acquired knowledge which they felt the masses were not ready to accept, and rather than be branded fools and outcast, left of their own accord.

Our modern world is full of guru`s, only too willing to stand in front of camera`s, to help mankind, while their bank accounts bulge from proceeds of books, guest appearances, seminars and workshops, and to add strength to their conviction, they all seem to sing from the same song sheet, an eruption of spirituality or the many fruitful sprouting, of a well laid plan.
We all fear a one world government, but welcome a one world spiritual movement.

From my understanding, enlightenment is the acquiring of knowledge, supposedly when we are ready, but at times this can turn your whole world up side down, what you held true in the past can be wiped out overnight.
Everyone`s path is unique to them, there maybe some common truths, but for the large part we walk alone, your belief yesterday may not be the same tomorrow, there are plenty out there willing to give advice, my worry is for those, willing to accept it.

[gruntal]

Some of the local guru's were unable to complete school in the conventional sense because of special learning disabilities. A few have college degrees up to and including Doctorates - mostly the social or therapeutic disciplines. Oddly it is those most qualified academically that fear going "too far" in their spiritual mentoring lest they over step professional boundaries of legal liability. If you were just a Gypsy doing fortune telling then I guess it wouldn't matter.

Maybe it was better when the village shaman was the one to see. It was certainly easier back then because everyone knew everyone else and knew who to trust.

[mojomojo]

Human nature at times can be quite astonishing, where the words of another are accepted, held fast and in time seen as one`s own belief, based on nothing more than mankind's inherent need to follow.
Who can question the blank expressions on the face of those presented with words, with no experience of their own, to add substance.
But the stories always seem to have a longer life, when presented by those of importance, self elected or not.

[sparklekaz]

Hi Multi,

You have asked a very good question. I agree with a lot that George and Mojo has said. I have been studying, sharing and thinking about spiritual matters from a very young age. And while I have been given some very good advice and guidance along the way. Most of my beliefs the perspectives I currently hold, I have gleaned through my own life experiences and observations.

I love to read, and have read many books on the topic of spirituality. Particularly those words that advocate spiritual and personal growth. In this sense I have found Buddhism to have been particularly helpful. Especially anything connected to self awareness and emotional intelligence. For me personally, I've come to believe that spiritual understanding and wisdom comes through 'self knowledge'. There may come a time when I am drawn to learning more about esoteric spirituality. And feel the need for a guru, guide or mentor. So far that has not happened. Maybe its because I'm more of a sense and feeling - Intuitive kind of person. Rather than someone who is drawn to the arcane, mystical, ritualistic type of spirituality. I'm a great believer in the old adage, what will be will be. And I like that saying, 'when the student is ready, the teacher will appear'. Whether that be a teacher in physical form, or a spirit guide. I agree with mojo and George that we are all unique and that ultimately though we can share our experiences and offer a different perspective. The spiritual path is one for the most part, we walk alone.

You ask about help in chat. Help can take many forms can't it. Whether its someone asking your opinion about a practice they are just beginning, and you have some experience in. Such as Reiki, meditation or yoga. To someone simply wanting another person, to listen to their worries and fears. I do think its important not to force our ideas or beliefs on to others. But, that there is nothing wrong with sharing what we believe and what we have learnt - if asked! There is nothing wrong with offering an opinion if asked. But, be wary of becoming opinionated, and offering advice when it is not sought. I tend to use the yardstick, that those who have something of value and merit to say, will wait to be invited. And those who are ego led and the quality of their advice and experience dubious, will thrust it upon you, whether you want it or not.

I would always advise anyone to be discerning. Use your own common sense, and do not believe everything other people tell you. Particularly if it doesn't sit well with you. And remember, by its very nature, the internet is anonymous, and that people can say anything they want; And pertain 'to be' anyone they want. You do not know for sure, if this is true either way. Take your time to get to know people. Establish some kind of rapport with them, before you start baring your souls.

I have heard people say "Is it right to share spiritual knowledge with others. How do we know if they are ready?" My answer to this is - If they ask, then they are ready. If they are here with you, in this place, asking these questions, then it is meant to be. What they do with the information you give them, is up to them. Be it disregard it, take it to an extreme. Use it to embark on a path they are not quite ready for. My belief is the whole experience will be a teaching one, no matter what happens. What will be will be kind of thing.

Just my take on it Multi. Good question. Please remember though, that this is only my opinion and thoughts on it, I' not trying to say its right. Just right for me. I think I'll end this post with one of my favourite quotes, which pretty well sums it all up for me. "Our prime purpose in this life is to help others. And if you can't help them, at least don't hurt them" Dalai Lama

Love and light
Kaz

[donq]

Hi Multidimensional,

I do agree with what Karen (Sparklekaz) said,

"And remember, by its very nature, the internet is anonymous, and that people can say anything they want; And pertain 'to be' anyone they want."

More than that, when it comes to chat (talking), most (if not all) people don't have enough time to think before they talk. I mean spiritual checking (you know what I mean, right?). Writing (posting) on the forums would be better because, at least, the posters have enough time to think before they write and share something. Even so, we still have seen many times that some posters had some big fights on forums, sometimes just because some misunderstanding. (Yes, and many times about their own big ego. lol).
Words can heal but words also can hurt. So, we should be very very careful when using them, shouldn't we?
So, where I draw the line? Hmm...I think I'll try my best not to help someone if they don't ask me for that purpose. This is not that I don't care or don't want to help them, but we, as someone who've been walking on our spiritual paths, should beware of our own ego, first and foremost, shouldn't we?
I like what Karen said, if they asked then that meant they wanted our help. But yes, there's always be an exception. Any talking must be tailored, to fit for particular listeners, individual one, for their own benefit, not for speakers benefit. Please remember that, everyone is unique. We cannot use the rigid (same) sets of talking to help everyone. Sometimes, many times, that might do more harm than help. There's no one cure for all disease.

[sparklekaz]

Hi Monty,

Thank you for your comments. As I said in my post, this is just my opinion, but it is always nice to know that others feel the same way. I particularly liked your comment about individuals being 'self aware' in respect of information sharing. You said,

"More than that, when it comes to chat (talking), most (if not all) people don't have enough time to think before they talk. I mean spiritual checking (you know what I mean, right?). Writing (posting) on the forums would be better because, at least, the posters have enough time to think before they write and share something."

Whilst I enjoy the immediate interaction of chat, I do find writing and reading on the forum better. For the simple reason, I can think carefully about what I want to say, in response to another persons post, and I can re read what I've written before posting. Over the years I have learnt to choose my words with care, but in the early days, more than once I've spoken in haste, before 'putting my brain into gear' so to speak. I've responded too quickly, before the other person has stopped speaking and so have not got the full picture. On the forum, that doesn't tend to happen as much.

On a forum post, in general, the individual has had the time to convey what they want to say fully and clearly. And secondly, on the forum, if someone has written a post that is ill informed or factually incorrect; other posters can help to clarify or correct the mistakes. Whereas in chat, the information sharing is immediate, and if someone has been given bad advice or incorrect information, they will leave the chat carrying that information with them, totally misinformed. Hard to do anything to help in those instances, unless that person returns and asks for other opinions about the same subject. That is why I would encourage anyone who becomes a member of chat, to also sign up for the forum. Posting on the forum, also enables interaction with a wider range of people. Particularly those, who for whatever reason, cannot come on to chat for long, or visit it all because of time zone difference. Like yourself for instance

Thank you for sharing Monty, as always it is good to see you posting. I hope you and your family are all keeping well.

Love and light
Kaz

[donq]

Thanks for your kind words, Karen. I do appreciate it, my friend.

I hesitated to post the below on my last post, even it was really on the topic. because I knew it might bore the readers. Anyway, let's say that I post this for you, my friend. hahaha
 
Someone asked the Buddha how he drew a line between what he would said and not say. He replied by its classification like this:
1. The words that were not true, not right (not correct), not be beneficial (not helpful to others), NOR not please others (in the sense that they didn't want to hear, even it was a truth), he would not say it.
2. The words that were true, right, but not be beneficial and not please others, he would not say it.  
3. The words that were true, right, be beneficial, even it would not please others, he would chose only right time to say it.
4.  The words that were not true, not right, not be beneficial, even it would please others, he would not say it.
5. The words that were true, right, but not be beneficial, even it would please others, he would not say it.
6. The words that were true, right, be beneficial, AND even would please others, he still would chose only right time to say it.

Above was what I tried to translated from some real sutra (of Tipiṭaka or Pali Canon). Sorry it advance if I translated something wrong. It's a bit confusing, isn't it.
Though I already memorized it for a very long time this way:
Try to say only the words that are true, right, be beneficial/helpful to others, even it might not please them, But the most important thing is, say it only in the right time.  

[sparklekaz]

Hi Monty,

Thank you for sharing that, its the kind of thing I do enjoy reading, and don't find it boring at all.

The twenty four million dollar question for me has always been - How to know when the time is right. I've always believed its about asking the question in the first place. Clearly, I would not say anything I thought would offend or upset another person. Obviously, I know it is possible to offend without intention. Especially if we are not informed of all the facts, or which can easily happen in chat, unable to read body language or the nuance of tone in conversation. How can we tell for sure the fragility of the emotional or mental state of the person asking the question! So caution always has to be used. But it is difficult.

Can I ask you and others, what guidance or yardstick do you use, to know when it is appropriate to say something or not. Particularly in regards to spiritual guidance or information?

Love and light
Kaz

[donq]

Hi Karen,

How to know when the time is right? I think that the (most) practical answer is as what you said,

"...there is nothing wrong with sharing what we believe and what we have learnt - if asked! There is nothing wrong with offering an opinion if asked."

Why is that? Here I was thinking of the book I translated many years ago, Nietzsehe's Thus Spoke Zarathustra:
(Ill try to edit and summarize it here so that it's not too long to read)  

Zarathustra went down the mountain alone, no one meeting him.
When he entered the forest, however, there suddenly stood before him an old man, who had left his holy hut to seek roots in the forest. And thus spoke the old man to Zarathustra:
"No stranger to me is this wanderer: many years ago he passed by. Zarathustra he was called, but he has changed. Then you carried your ashes up to the mountains: will you now carry your fire into the valleys? Do you not fear the arsonist's punishment?
Yes, I recognize Zarathustra. Pure are his eyes, and no loathing lurks around his mouth. Does he not move like a dancer?Transformed is Zarathustra; Zarathustra has become a child; an awakened one is Zarathustra: what will you do in the land of the sleepers? As in the sea have you lived in solitude, and it has supported you. Alas, will you now go ashore? Alas, will you again haul your body by yourself?"
Zarathustra answered: "I love mankind."
"Why," said the saint, "did I go into the forest and the desert? Was it not because I loved men far too well?
.............................
Anyway, Zarathustra didn't listen to the old man and this was what happened to him:

When Zarathustra arrived at the nearest town which is close to the forest, he found many people assembled in the market-place, for it had been announced that a tightrope walker would give a performance. And Zarathustra spoke thus to the people:
Behold, I teach you the overman!
Man is a rope stretched between animal and overman--a rope over an abyss. A dangerous crossing, a dangerous on-the-way, a dangerous looking-back, a dangerous trembling and stopping. What is great in man is that he is a bridge and not a goal: what can be loved in man is that he is an over-going and a down-going.
I love those who know not how to live except as down-goers, for they are the over-goers. I love the great despisers, because they are the great reverers, and arrows of longing for the other shore.
I love those who do not first seek a reason beyond the stars for going down and being sacrifices, but sacrifice themselves to the earth, that the earth of the overman may some day arrive.
I love him who lives in order to know, and seeks to know in order that the overman may someday live. Thus he seeks his own down-going.
I love him who loves his virtue: for virtue is the will to down-going, and an arrow of longing.
I love him who reserves no drop of spirit for himself, but wants to be entirely the spirit of his virtue: thus he walks as spirit over the bridge.
I love him who makes his virtue his addiction and destiny: thus, for the sake of his virtue, he is willing to live on, or live no more.
I love him who does not desire too many virtues. One virtue is more of a virtue than two, because it is more of a knot for one's destiny to cling to...
I love him who is of a free spirit and a free heart: thus is his head only the entrails of his heart; his heart, however, drives him to go down.
I love all who are like heavy drops falling one by one out of the dark cloud that hangs over man: they herald the coming of the lightning, and perish as heralds.
Behold, I am a herald of the lightning, and a heavy drop out of the cloud: the lightning, however, is called overman.
When Zarathustra had spoken these words, he again looked at the people, and was silent. "There they stand," he said to his heart; "there they laugh: they do not understand me; I am not the mouth for these ears!"...
At this point the voices interrupted him. "Give us this last man, O Zarathustra" - they called out "Make us into these last men! Then will we make you a present of the overman!" And all the people laughed and clucked with their tongues.
Zarathustra, however, grew sad, and said to his heart: "They don't understand me: I am not the mouth for these ears. Perhaps I have lived too long in the mountains; too long have I listened to the brooks and trees: now I speak to them as to the goatherds. Calm is my soul, and clear, like the mountains in the morning. But they think I am cold, and a mocker with fearful jokes. And now do they look at me and laugh: and while they laugh they hate me too. There is ice in their laughter."
.....................

Anyway, I think that there's still be hope. From my bad (English) grammar, there is a right time and the right time. We might never know what is the right time but we might still know a right time. Can I say, a ripe time? When? When (and only when) we are asked (as you said).

Here I cannot help but thinking of one of my favorite songs of Leonard Cohen:

"If It Be Your Will"
If it be your will--That I speak no more--And my voice be still--As it was before
I will speak no more--I shall abide until--I am spoken for--If it be your will
If it be your will--That a voice be true--From this broken hill--I will sing to you
From this broken hill--All your praises they shall ring--If it be your will--To let me sing
From this broken hill--All your praises they shall ring--If it be your will--To let me sing
If it be your will--If there is a choice--Let the rivers fill--Let the hills rejoice
Let your mercy spill--On all these burning hearts in hell--If it be your will--To make us well
And draw us near--And bind us tight--All your children here--In their rags of light
In our rags of light--All dressed to kill--And end this night--If it be your will
.................

Yes, when we are asked, let our mercy spill on those burning hearts in hell, to make us well, to draw us near and to bind us tight, indeed! 

[sparklekaz]

Hi Monty,

What a great story. Very powerful words, ones to read and re read, for I have a feeling, that each time of reading will reveal something more. If we have eyes to see and ears to hear.

I particularly found the following moving and poignant.

Man is a rope stretched between animal and overman--a rope over an abyss. A dangerous crossing, a dangerous on-the-way, a dangerous looking-back, a dangerous trembling and stopping. What is great in man is that he is a bridge and not a goal: what can be loved in man is that he is an over-going and a down-going.
I love those who know not how to live except as down-goers, for they are the over-goers. I love the great despisers, because they are the great reverers, and arrows of longing for the other shore.
I love those who do not first seek a reason beyond the stars for going down and being sacrifices, but sacrifice themselves to the earth, that the earth of the overman may some day arrive.
I love him who lives in order to know, and seeks to know in order that the overman may someday live. Thus he seeks his own down-going.
I love him who loves his virtue: for virtue is the will to down-going, and an arrow of longing.
I love him who reserves no drop of spirit for himself, but wants to be entirely the spirit of his virtue: thus he walks as spirit over the bridge.
I love him who makes his virtue his addiction and destiny: thus, for the sake of his virtue, he is willing to live on, or live no more.

And this - From this broken hill--All your praises they shall ring--If it be your will--To let me sing
From this broken hill--All your praises they shall ring--If it be your will--To let me sing
If it be your will--If there is a choice--Let the rivers fill--Let the hills rejoice

Let your mercy spill--On all these burning hearts in hell--If it be your will--To make us well
And draw us near--And bind us tight--All your children here--In their rags of light
In our rags of light--All dressed to kill--And end this night--If it be your will

I love the symbology of being the bridge. And even if no one hears, we cannot help, but sing our songs, can we monty, For it is who we are. And tell our stories around the fire, even if no one listens.

Beautiful Thank you for sharing

Love and light
Kaz

[donq]

Hi Karen,

Tell our stories around the fire, even if no one listens. I like that!


Hi Multi,
I was going to go to bed but thought of something and would like to write it down and post here before I forget it tomorrow. Anyway, please feel free to ignore it if you don't agree with me. And I apologize in advance if it might sound so religious.
You might got a feeling that our friends on this thread seemed to disagree about helping others in the chat room. The point is, everyone spoke from the experiences, maybe the bitter ones (as in the case of Zarathustra). And all of our friends here are old persons (more than 50). hahaha. As it's said, "a young person dares to do anything while an old man person hesitates before doing everything". :-)
I encourage you to do what you've intended to do. Helping others is good in any case, at least good for us (as the helpers). This means sometimes, many times, the helper might/could not get a good result, even a bad one, even he/she has a good/pure intention to help. And anyone who's walking on the spiritual path knows that helping other also help them to going up (spiritual growth), while being selfish and don't want to help only make them going down.
As I used to be a Buddhist (I mean, the Buddhists think I'm a mad man and don't accept me any more. hahaha), I'd like to mention something here.
To help or not to help was one reasons to separate Buddhism into Mahayana (Great Vehicle) and Hinayana (Small Vehicle) or Theravada (The School of the Elders) [Vajrayana is also classified as Mahayana Buddhism].
Theravada believe that if we are not ready and cannot completely help ourselves, how could we help others? And as it's said, "watched pot never boils" which means helping other along the way might only distract you from your ultimate spiritual goal. Besides, there's a serious warning about this. After you've been doing vipassana (Insight Meditation) and found something, you really want to tell the whole world about what you've known. Sure this will distract you from your rel path, your vipassana. It is called vipassanakilesa (kilesa = negative passion like hate, greed, lust, ego etc.)    
As for Mahayana, they believe that we cannot be selflish and only waiting like that. We should also help other along the way. If others still don't get enlightenment, so do us. Or our duties are to help them before ourselves. Sometimes this is called "Bodhisattva mind" (or Buddha's mind).
Sure, I agree with and have been practiced and studied both Mahayana and Theravada Buddhism for more than 35 years. However, I always ask myself this question, what will happen if I saw someone falling into the water and drowning. Should I be a good Mahayanist and jumped into the water and help that person even I was not ready (not a good swimmer)? Yes, I would get Bodhisattva mind for my spiritua result. But I and that person would die for sure. But if, and only if, there was no one there cared to jump into the water and help, that might not be a question. I would and I should take a risk and jump, right? Why? Because the world might become a hell if a good man doing nothing, like it's said.
Ok, I have to say goodnight here. Sorry for any typos.         

[sparklekaz]

Hi Multi,

I agree with everything Monty has said. You do what you feel drawn to do. I know I do. I think it is part of your beautiful caring nature that you want to help others. And as the old saying goes, often when we help others, we also help ourselves.

I honestly think, we can 'over think' too much. Go with what your heart tells you is right, and you will not go wrong.

Love and light
Kaz

[sparklekaz]

Hi Multi,

I think coaching can cover many areas. Are you talking about 'life coaching'. I have never done that, but was trained as a Advisor with the Citizens Advice Bureau. I spent 8 years with them. The organization is charity based, and is there to provide unbiased information and support for people. Particularly those who are on low incomes, unemployed or vulnerable through mental and physical disabilities. The ethos of this organization was to protect and empower others. A big part of our training was taken up with interviewing skills. We were taught how to draw people out, to get to the root of a problem or issue with care and compassion. The training also teaches you how to recognize your own preconceptions, expectations, predjudices and bias. It was a extremely fulfilling and satisfying part of my life. One I still remember with fondness. I learnt a lot.

Love and light
Kaz

[sparklekaz]

Hi Multi,

To be honest I would think the training in general for coaches or therapists is very similar. Its built upon the foundation of people skills isn't it. I can understand you enjoying it. I know I did when I did my training. And within the CAB they see training as ongoing. Always upgrading skills set, as well as going on regular courses and workshops, designed to facilitate better interacting and understanding with people from different walks of life, who have a variety of needs.

I think the courses are also designed to help the person doing the course to understand themselves better, thereby understanding others better, if that makes sense. Is there an area that you particularly enjoy? What part of the course in connection to people skills are you currently at? And what do you feel, your yourself have gained from doing it?

Love and light
Kaz