Who wears a denture, raise your hand :-)

[donq]

I wore my first denture (false teeth) even before I reached my 50 (partly because I've smoked a lot of cigarette/pipe) and changed it many times. Sometimes a bad denture gave me very painful experience. I could not chew even some soft noodle!
What I wonder if why I need a denture more than the purpose of eating my food?
I could wear my casual dress (T-shirt and jeans) and go anywhere without problem. I mean I never lost my self-confidence even after someone looked down on me because of my dress. I don't think I should care about those persons who judge other just by the outer appearance, not something within.
Anyway, when it comes to my denture, it's a different story. hahaha
Sometimes after I went out from home and realized that I forgot to wear my denture, and I lost all of my self-confidence! It's strange and funny. But why?
Or I still haven't detached myself enough from my body?

[aceofcups]

monty

although I have filling in some teeth I am not yet an in-dentured servant to my dentist

peace

[donq]

Hi Ace,
Hahaha! I got this one. But after I looked into my dictionary.

Hi Amy,


You said, "hmm detachment is one side, but i also think that while we are here our body is our temple and we have to 'own' it and take care of it (while realizing we are not that body, of course). still, of course that makes you want your body to be in good shape. and teeth are kind of part of the body, while clothes are not, we can choose to change them at any second, while with our teeth (or hair, or too small/large parts of ourselves etc.) we can't. so i think that's why we are more self-conscious about body parts (e.g. teeth) than about clothes. our body can tell others about our health, lifestyle choices etc. while our clothes may tell them something about the way we see ourselves (elegant, casual, fashionable, status-oriented, not bothered etc.)..."

Is this becuase you are a woman? And woman naturally tend to take care of her body more than man?
Yes, I understand and agree with what you said. Self image is also important, as long as we still have to deal with social interaction. I can dress very casually just because I always work at home. But I know I should dress more approciate for such and such place I'm going to.
Many years ago, I had some spiritual friends who worked for NGO. They believed that we should not acttach to our clothes, so they dressed so badly, to show that they were cool. So, it turned out that they didn't attach to their appearence, but they still attached to "non-attachment".
Anyway, what I wanted to know about dentures is more than ordinary self-image but let's call it, self-image in the spiritual sense.
Heres' an example:

Ivan Ilych locked to door and began to examine himself in the glass, first full face, then in profile. He took up a portrait of himself taken with his wife, and compared it with what he saw in the glass. The change in him was immense. Then he bared his arms to the elbow, looked at them, drew the sleeves down again, sat down on an ottoman, and grew blacker than night.
-from The Death of Ivan Ilych by Leo Tolstoy

When everyone becomes old, ill ect. the change in oneself will be so immense. What used to looked good become ugly, flabby, wither and wrinkles. Why can't one deal with that natural change? And why those outer appearance can even affect the inner self?
  
I agree with what you told about  the connection of the tooth problems and victim stages. Yes, problems can make us eat more. I had this kind of experience myself. hahaha

Hmm...I think maybe one good thing about denture is...I can whistle with my mouth while I'm still brushing my teeth. hahaha

P.S. The weather here (and everywhere, as the news says) dropped down more than 15-20 Celsius. How about there?

[donq]

Hi Amy,

You said, "no, the temple thing i meant as applying to everyone. we were given (have chosen) a body and should be looking after it as well as we can, as it ‚ transports‘ our consciousness, a very precious thing indeed. :-D:

-Hmm...you might be right. There's also a Buddhist saying, " "Health is wealth". And even 2,500 years ago, it was said that Buddhist monks who dressed only away ragged cloth they picked up (their robes), still used some (plant) root to clean their teeth. Sure, not for having beautiful white teeth, but for pure health. :-)

You said, "plus i know a few men that actually spend more time in front of a mirror than some women lol. men seem to be just as insecure as women when it comes to their body, even if they might be better at pretending they’re not."

-Okay. Don't dare to disagree. hahaha. Kidding. Yes, man or woman has equal right to spend time in front of the mirror.

You said, "there is a beauty even in wrinkles, as each one is telling a story of the person’s path, which is of course beautiful in itself (even if painful), but each path is another expression of life/the great nothingness."

-Ah! I see it now, you are an optimist! That's why you always see the beauty in the world. As for me, I'm kind of a pessimist as I used to be a serious Buddhist. hahaha
Our friends were talking on another thread if Buddhism is pessimist or not. And Karen (Kaz) already explained about it so well. I think it's the same situation like we try to explain to our teenagers that they should take their lives more seriously, or they will never grown up and having good lives (job etc.). Sure, it's hard for them to understand and always think that we are pessimists who only think about the bad things.

You said, "and it’s only natural to feel affected by outer changes of our appearance – as outside, so inside. when we look in the mirror and look ‚old‘, we feel old. or when we look tired, we feel tired as well. so the outer reality determines our inner reality – that’s why it’s so difficult sometimes to try and be positive (in an effort to make use of the LOA) when you look around and can’t see that many positive things.

-Yes, I think this is very point of spiritual practice. I mean what is really natural? Why the outside can affect our inside? Is that natural or not natural? Why outer reality determines our inner reality? As we could see so many sad news about people killed themselves because their outer reality changed (being cheated, jobless, etc.) And I think that spirituality, such as Buddhism, tries to teach us that this kind of attachment (attaching to the outer reality) bring suffering to us. Hence we have to learn to detach from them.  

You said, "but luckily it also works the other way round – when for some reason you feel happy one day but the weather is absolutely miserable and all faces you look into reflect that misery – you will still be happy (if you can hold onto that happiness and not get dragged down by the others), be it rain, hail or a thunderstorm. so your inner feeling will make the outside good as well, and even rain and mist (i love mist, there should be a lot more of it) will seem like magic and beautiful."

-Ooops! You already talked about detachment or don't let the outer reality affect us. Yes, more than agree.

You said, "so your inner feeling will make the outside good as well, and even rain and mist (i love mist, there should be a lot more of it) will seem like magic and beautiful."

-Yes, this is another (spiritual) step. After we could detach ourselves from outer reality, then our inner reality will shrine, both within and without. Our inner reality will be pure and joyful, and that can affect the outer reality to become like magic and beautiful.

Very well post, Amy.

P.S. 10 degrees? Hahaha! here, in my city, 15 is already cold. As it's a joke (that's true) that there are 3 season in my country: hot hot season, hot cold season and hot rainy season. hahaha    

[donq]

Hi Amy,

You think from A to B
while I think from B to A
and finally we both agree
to talk happily only about B.
Q.E.D. (quod erat demonstrandum)

Seriously, I like the way you think. Though you seem to think in the opposite way of mine, but we still didn't kill each other (at least, not yet. hahaha)
I'd like you to comment on something I wrote in English (English is not my first language) and posted on my blog 5-6 years ago. Yes, only if you have enough time doing that. Thanks in advance. And please feel free to give your comment. I promise I will not kill you (because I don't know where you live ) even if you give me a cruel comment. 

P.S. It might be off-topic from this thread but I think it's better than having another thread anyway.

The core: mindfulness and thought observation

Most people "think" they can think their own thoughts. They don't know (and maybe never will) that their thoughts do not arise out of their will ("on the tip on the tongue" phenomenon is the prove). Indeed, our thoughts arise unconsciously. To realize that mindfulness is needed. But before that it’s hard to discern those two systems of thoughts.

As for mindfulness practice, when one starts to watch one’s mind, then it has something to do with watching one thinking (at the very beginning) and the means and the end of that practice are called mindfulness; attentiveness; detached watching; awareness etc. Mindfulness is not the meditative state in the real sense but one also gets loop meditation as a result, too.

Meditation normally is used as a basic procedure for trying to have no-thinking, no thought (or feeling etc.) by concentrate on something such as chanting, mantra, bead counting, breathing, body movement etc. to get one-pointedness of mind, therefore a meditation. In Eastern tradition, this may concern with a meditation device; object of meditation; the method of inducing concentration by grazing at any of the ten objects, viz., earth, water, fire, air, blue, yellow, red, white, space and light. When any thought arises, one tries to shake them off and returns to his object of meditation again and again. But the difference between meditation and mindfulness practicing is that when any thought arises in one’s mind, what mindfulness does is just watching them, not shaking them off such like meditation. It'd rather allow the thinking to occur (to observe them), not to block them for the sake of meditative state. Why? Because if one blocks them off he cannot observe them when they arise (or in the real life situation after he pauses his meditation to do something else). Again, one also needs the object of mindfulness because without it he will never known he is thinking (no mindfulness or thought observer) and will be took over by his own thinking, his thought.

In watching one’s mind, the observed systems of mindfulness may be just the probabilities. This means that we can never predicted with certainty when a certain thought will arise at a certain time (to be observed). All we can do is to stay alert with our object of mindfulness such as our breathing etc. Normally, when any thought occurs, we will took over by it and forget our object of mindfulness. Then, we forget or have no mindfulness any more. Only when we turn to our object of mindfulness again, mindfulness will be come back.

What’s interesting is how can we know for sure that our thought observer or mindfulness (that watching the thought) is not just another thought disguised itself to be mindfulness? For example, a thought that one will get another drink as a reward for NOT drinking that drink. ;-)

However, most of our thoughts are unstable, they inevitably fade away into other thoughts or feelings at a certain time. That happens automatically and naturally (this is why some practice stress on NOT doing anything for letting that primordial state arises). Therefore, for the beginning, it is not possible for our mindfulness to detect every thoughts that already arose, or predict the time it will arise exactly. Mindfulness can only observe the probability of thoughts. Besides, many thoughts have so powerful that mindfulness cannot stop them, to observe them. If mindfulness is like the knife for cutting the bond of thought, the strength of the hand to hold it is also necessary. That’s why more and more practice is necessary.

By the way, if we want to observe any thought, we must first isolate it, or create it. The problem is our thought occurs spontaneously and unconsciously at not exactly time. And the irony is if we keep watching it, it will not arise and when it really arise we will lost our mindfulness and don’t observe it anymore, even don’t know that it has arose.

Therefore in mindfulness or thought observation practice, both our thought and mindfulness must be connected together as a whole. It exists and has meaning only in this context. This is because the interacting between thought and mindfulness is always required otherwise thought observation will never took place. Therefore, what we need is not only thought observation but participation observation of thought.

On the further consideration, as mentioned above: how can we know for sure that what supposed to be mindfulness that observing the thought is not just another thought disguised itself to be mindfulness? So the question is: at what stage of mind does that "thought observation" take place? Therefore, there should be another hidden observer (similar to Ernest Hilgard’s hidden observer) who is a friend of mindfulness that watching the thought involved (it’s like Wigner’s friend after “Schrodinger’ cat” in thought experiment in Physics). Only when this hidden observer appears into one’s mind, before that point, those participation observation of thoughts still be a superposition of “thought-thought” and “thought-mindfulness”.

Well, that’s also another long story. ;-)

[donq]

Hi Amy,

First of all, thanks from my heart, Amy, for taking your time to read and write your reply. I know it was a boring stuff to read. And I know you really read it.  
Secondly, Wow! English is not your first language? Incredible! No way I can tell.

In case someone else wondering what these two crazy persons (you and I) are talking about, let me post this story again. (I used to post it is another similar version):

One late evening, a man had a flat tire on a lonely country road. He was annoyed to find that the jack had been taken from the car, so he headed off to a distant farmhouse for help. "I hope the farmer isn't angry," he said to himself, "for being bothered." The further he walked, the more concerned he got about how the farmer would respond to his request for help. "Hey, wait a minute," he said to himself, "I can't help it. I don't mean to bother him. It isn't like I asked for this trouble!"
As day gave way to night, the downstairs lights in the farmhouse went out and the upstairs lights went on. "Oh, my goodness," the fellow said, "I've got to hurry. The farmer is going to bed. If I have to wake him, he'll really be angry!" So he hurried on.
Moments later the light from only one room was left shining.
By now the fellow was sure the farmer would be really upset at being disturbed. "After all," he said to himself, "farmers need to go to bed early and get a good night's sleep for the long day ahead. But I can't help the fix I'm in. If he gets mad at me-well, that's just too bad. I need help and he's the only one for miles around who can give it to me." And he hurried on getting more and more annoyed at himself, his circumstances, and, yes, the farmer.
Finally, the last light went off. Everything was dark. "Oh, brother, am I in for it now. This guy is going to be so mad at me. But that's just too bad. I have no other option. He's just going to have to be mad!"
At last, the fellow got to the farmhouse. By now his anger had gotten the best of him. He took a small stone and threw it against the farmer's bedroom window. Moments later, the farmer appeared at the window and, in a pleasant voice, called down, "Hello, how can I help you?" To which the enraged traveler, with clinched fist, barked back, "You can keep your damn jack," and walked off in a huff!



your said, "i agree that we have to be mindful to ‚catch‘ ourselves thinking. the consciousness that observes the thinking mind thinking thoughts is imho connected to our true self and not just another thought, because it seems to be on an entirely different level – outside of our ‘regular me‘ which is the ‘caught-up-within-itself-self‘) aka our very self-involved ego. if it was just another thought of ego then it would in itself be just another train of thoughts going round and round, without us (our higher self) even being aware of it."


-Hmm....that paragraph is something that so hard to put into words, but you did it so well. You talked like a psychoanalyst.  Are you one of them? And if so, you sounded like you are from French school, not German one. (Charcot/Janet/Lacan not Freud/Jung) :-)

Yes, agree. The empty space out there (sky) and empty space in here (human mind) are always the mysterious things. What is the origin of Black hole? Big bang? What is the origin of consciousness?
How could something go beyond itself and become something better? How egg become chicken? Was there chicken in the first place? But how?

Sorry, I've diverted. As for "the consciousness that observes the thinking mind", there was some paragraph that I like, written by a Buddhist monk around a thousand year ago:

For whatever makes something stop in front of it, is still not "this-only"
("this-only" means the highest state of mindfulness, and it also means the primordial state which hasn't involved ego)
He knows that what is grasped (observed) does not exist
Then he realized that what graph (grasper) doesn't exist either

This is just to say I appreciate your post. You are a very good thinker who knows how to convey your thought into words very well!

    

[donq]

Hi Amy,

What a relief! I was afraid that you might tell me to lie down on a couch while we are talking.

I used to watch a video about the world conference on psychiatry years ago. Most psychiatrists there honestly confessed that they could never really heal their patients. Somehow they got better, more or less, by the right drugs. But most of the cases they healed themselves in the mysterious ways!    

I agree with you about disagreeing. I mean, I don't agree the way psychology/psychiatry label persons. However, I still think that psychology is still useful to understanding human behavior/mind (comparing to other scientific knowledge). And the history of psychology goes the long way back to the ancient time of Egypt, Greece, China, India, and Persia which all engaged in the philosophical study of psychology (the workings of the mind). It's sad to say that when psychology was label to be a science around 130 years ago, somehow it has lost its potential. As there was a warning about "mindless brain and brainless mind" which meant it's bad if we only study brain and ignore mind (Neurology). And it's also bad if we study only mind and ignore brain (new age psychology that goes too far).

I also like Jung more than Freud. Maybe because Jung believed in spirituality? (for example, Jung believed in meaningful coincidence while Freud didn't). But I also admire Freud's work, not because he was the father of psychoanalysis but because he was the first neurologist who questioned the motives behind human behavior. What he found about human's unconscious mind (the unconscious) really changed the world. The best example is in Criminology. Law had to ask a new question that never done before, did defendant commit his crime because of his conscious mind or unconscious mind? Sane or insane? Going to jail or insane asylum? 
      
Anyway, Freud himself used to say "the 3 great psychologists in the world are Dostoevsky, Goethe and the last one I cannot say. Have to be humble". Though he joked about the third, but he did mean about the first two who were two of the great writers of the world.

As I enjoy our talking and you are not a shrink (lucky me ), I'd like to ask you some more questions, if I may.

Does man and woman see the same truth in the different way? (including spiritual truth). As it's said, "man thinks with his brain, woman her heart". Yang and Yin? Left brain and right brain?
For example, when I was a young man, once there was the provincial governor election. I wanted to vote for the candidate A. while my (female) friend wanted to choose B. When I asked her why she said because B. would take care a dead dog on a road! I thought that was a very little thing and didn't suit the duty of a governor who must taking care of a bigger problem that a dead dog. She explained, if he even took care of even the little thing, that only mean he would never let any problem passed by. And it took me some times to understand that.

understand

[sparklekaz]

Hi Monty and Amy,

I hope you don't mind me jumping in on your conversation, but it's taken an interesting turn and would like to join in if I may.

Amy said "i find psychology rather fixed and rigid, trying to label everything and defining all things, situations and people, which then makes development/growth harder if the defined person with the defined problem makes this definition part of their identity, attaching to it and forever carrying that picture of themselves around with them. so psychology is useful in one way, but without leaving space for philosophical and spiritual perspectives i find it rather limiting and restrictive."

Psychologists by their nature do tend to be analytical. And by necessity have to remain impartial and detached. Thereby being able to reach the right prognosis without being pulled in to and influenced by the emotional state and reality of the patient. I do agree they tend to try to label and define everything. But, I think we can take that as a negative or a positive. I'm no expert on psychiatric conditions, but I do know that it is rare that a clear cut diagnosis can be made. As in someone exhibiting symptoms that fit ''all the criteria required for a diagnosis. And to that degree I think psychiatrists are working in the dark. I think the labeling part, is simply a means of getting an individual some help. Whether its medication - controlled care - cognitive or other types of counseling therapy.

I see a diagnosis as being a starting point, with the aim of helping someone. Rather than a label meant to define a person for the rest of their lives. Though I do understand why some people feel that it does. I also believe that the mental health community do now see the mind/body/spirit connection. And because of this have introduced a more holistic approach, as is now using mindfulness techniques to facilitate this. So change is happening albeit slowly. I think psychiatry has been the slowest branch of medicine to have changed over the last twenty years. But at least it is now happening. M Scott Peck is a registered psychiatrist and he wrote the brilliant 'A road less traveled'. A really insightful book, in which he applies his right brain, with his left brain. Also Brian Weiss another psychotherapist has explored albeit by accident, past lives, and the affect memories brought forward can have on mind/body/spirit. Times are a changing

I also really admire Jung. I've found his works on Archetypes - Anima/Animus really helpful with regard to inner work. Particularly when it comes to personal relationships - Is it love/lust or projection. His dream symbolism work really helpful and informative. I personally think that Carl Jung was a closet Buddhist. Many of his observations seem to echo what the Buddhists believe, obviously in his own words. As Amy quoted him saying "‘there’s no coming to consciousness without pain‘" It's clear there was no love lost between Jung and Freud. Here are some of his words on Freud.

Carl Jung: Quotations (1875 - 1961)

Freud said that the goal of therapy was to make the unconscious conscious. He certainly made that the goal of his work as a theorist. And yet he makes the unconscious sound very unpleasant, to say the least: It is a cauldron of seething desires, a bottomless pit of perverse and incestuous cravings, a burial ground for frightening experiences which nevertheless come back to haunt us. Frankly, it doesn't sound like anything I'd like to make conscious!

Jung believed that:

1.We cannot change anything unless we accept it.
2. Condemnation does not liberate, it oppresses.
3. Nobody, as long as he moves among the chaotic currents of life,
is without trouble.
4. Synchronicity is an ever present reality for those who have eyes to see.
5. We should not pretend to understand the world only by the intellect; we apprehend it just as much by feeling. Therefore, the judgment of the intellect is, at best, only the half of truth, and must, if it be honest, also come to an understanding of its inadequacy. Don't you just love him!!

Love and light
Kaz

[donq]

Very good post, Karen. You are a true healer.
I have to do out to do something. Maybe I'll post later.

[sparklekaz]

Hi Amy,

I totally see where your coming from, re people feeling defined by a label given to them by someone else. And yes, for many it can be a passing phase. A one off - like 'reactive' depression. Triggered off by a traumatic or deeply upsetting life experience. Many free floating anxiety states can be connected to this too. But, there are also those who suffer from deeply upsetting psychosis. This may be from an un-managed, or supported bi-polar condition or schizophrenia. I believe for the sake of the person who is suffering, conditions like this do often need medication. But as you say, we cannot generalize as every individual's circumstances are different.

You said "on the other hand i have yet to meet a single person who psychotherapy/psychiatry etc. has helped in overcoming their victim state – on the contrary, the longer they have been in therapy the more of an ‚emotional mess‘ vibe comes across, as they are forever fixated on their suffering – by being and remaining in therapy (‚energy follows attention‘ – so keeping your focus and attention on the suffering ME simply maintains it)." That is a pretty sweeping statement.

I have some experience of counseling. At a very young age, 17, I started suffering from severe anxiety attacks. Culminating when I was 22, in becoming housebound for 2 years because I'd developed full blown agoraphobia. I had to give up my job, though to be fair they kept it open for me for 9 months. I just could not face going back. Anyway, back to the point - Counseling, cognitive therapy did work for me. It was slow, but steady progress. And though I still suffered from anxiety attacks for years afterwards, the techniques that I was taught were very helpful. As was having it explained to me, what was going on physiologically and why. The counselor I had was brilliant at helping me to view the condition in a realistic way. And how my fear, kept it thriving. The severity and intensity lessened, and I was able eventually, to take up the reins of a normal life again. It wasn't all down to the therapy, I did a lot of self-work too as in research and reading on the subject. Started relaxation and meditation. And through my reading came to understand the importance of and the connection between mind/body/spirit.

In the beginning and for a few years, I guess I did see myself as a victim. 'Why has this happened to me', the fear, not being able to control it. Blaming other people, circumstances etc. Then gradually, through self growth I came to see the truth. That ultimately, it was my responses, reactions and thinking that was responsible for my mental/physical health. I did do group therapy for a while. And while I can see how you might think that all that happens there is that everyone just reinforces the negativity of the situation. And it becomes a me, me thing. In reality, it can have the opposite effect. Yes, people might start off by thinking me me. But they soon see, its not just them. Many others suffer as they do. And that is such a relief. Because if you've ever had an anxiety condition. You'll know it makes you feel terribly isolated, different, as if there is something wrong with you, and everyone else is normal. When the truth is, many suffer from anxiety to some degree or another, at different times in their lives. So it's a relief to know, it's not just you. And sharing experiences, hearing how others coped in similar situations to you, is helpful. Because when your 'in it', you feel as if you'll never get 'out of it'. This setting is really helpful for a limited period of time. There has to be a point when people move on to the next stage of their recovery. Because as you've said, it can start to be counter-productive, if people get 'stuck' at that stage.

This was actually a catalyst for my own spiritual growth. Hard to see at the time, how something so frightening can end up being so positive. But it did. I came to realize, if you think your a victim, you'll never get better. If you think your health is dependent on other people, you'll never get better. It's only when you accept responsibility and basically realize, that it's you, that has the power - then nothing will change. So yes, I agree, some do fall into the 'victim trap'. But, not all do, and even those that do, many will eventually climb out of it. For me personally, therapy and medication (short-term) really helped. But the biggest help, was myself.

Now is this divine intention or timing.. or is this me being pro-active.

Love and light
Kaz

[donq]

Hi Amy,

It's okay. No worries.