sour cake?

[donq]

Recently I've joined a (spiritual) meetup group here, in Bangkok. At the last meeting, one member told about how she used affirmation (positive thinking) and got the expensive watch she really wanted for so long. Another member argued that spiritual affirmation should not involve material thing, like that watch. Then some members asked why not. If material things or money, are supposed to come to us (divinely), they would. But if we don't "want" them in the first place, they would never come.
Frankly speak, I kind of agree with a friend who said spirituality should not have something to do with material thing. But again, I agree that if we don't want money (or material thing), no way we will "intend" to do something to get it. And wanting material thing itself is not right or wrong. Though the way to handle with that wanting is.
I raised a question to the group, if I got a terminal disease, what would happen after I set my affirmation that I wanted to die peacefully, painlessly, and very sooner. That kind of affirmation was against spirituality or not? Spirituality could involve putting someone's life to death? Mercy killing?
As I tend to think like a Buddhist, I thought a lot about happiness and non-unhappiness. Which one did I really want? If you are getting old, like me, you will feel that happiness could/should not be trusted. After happiness has raised you so high in the air, then it will drop you so deep into the abyss. For example, I might feel so happy if I got a new and beautiful car. Then, if it was stolen, or was hit by another car etc. I would feel so terrible. That terrible feeling would never happen if I never got that car.
Life without happiness seems to be so depressing. But why happiness seems to be less real than pain or unhappiness (losing someone/something we love etc.)?
Can I have my cake and eat it "happily"? Can I still feel happy after I ate my cake and it's gone? And can I still feel happy without having my cake at the first place?
Again, or I'm just thinking like that fox (in Aesop's Fable) who thought those grapes are sour because he cannot get it? :-)
 

[gruntal]

First I tend to think everything in the Cosmos is mathematical. If you think about it Unconditional Love is as coldly mathematical as you can get.

Secondly we hear so often we get what we want and it seems insulting to those raped and murdered. But assuming all outcomes are predestined mathematically then it must follow we were in arrears at some time and place.

So it isn't so much sour grapes as it is trying to balance the tally for out benefit. At least then everything starts to have some purpose!

It does seem in the long run what we remember the most is not what we have but what it took to get it. The hunger and failure that motivated us. And the thrill of "beating the system" when we won!

[aceofcups]

Reading Donq's post... to me it depends on where a person is in their life and there life desires and expectations.

Happiness to a very debated word... is Happiness just about getting material objects and our personality desires fulfilled?

True Happiness to some is trying to live a loving spiritual connected life and can be to those people an inner state of contentment with life -- wherever life may take one... for those who seek this deeper sense of happiness it really has nothing to do with material desires and getting "stuff".

When one is connected to the Present moment and Their own Higher Self one gets what they need at all levels,,, even if it is not always as pleasant as our personality self wanted... sometimes learning and real happiness comes with working on oneself and learning to overcoming difficulties even.

In Zen they believe Seeking and Desiring stuff is the exact energy which blocks and doesn't allow the energy and "stuff" -- be it physical, emotional , mental and spiritual from coming to us.

learn to seek less and Be more.

[donq]

Very true, Gruntal & Ace.

With time and effort we've used to get our happiness, the same amount of energy (if it isn't used) can do much more (spiritual) thing for us! Not to mention time and effort we will have to spend for "holding" that happiness with us. And how can we hold that against the law of change?  

P.S.

"I can save a huge money as I didn't buy that new and beautiful car!'
"But...you never have that amount of money before!"
"See? I also can save energy, for trying to get that money in the first place!"

[sparklekaz]

Great post Monty

To me happiness is not about wanting or getting. I am truly happy, when I'm not wanting anything, and just content at peace in the moment. There is nothing peaceful about yearning, wanting or striving. And often when someone get's what they want, they quickly forget it and are on to the next thing.

Love and light
Kaz

[donq]

At my last meetup, while one of our members was explaining how she attracted a loud noise (especially kids shriek), suddenly some people stopped walking and talking so loud so close to us! And it didn't happen before that (it was rather a quiet coffee shop). What if it was not just a coincidence? What if there's vital connection between what our (subconscious) mind thinks and what its manifestation? What if we could tune our subconscious, via affirmation (or positive thinking etc.), and attracts what we want that is really meant for us?
The strange thing was she used to explain something like this once, but that time there was no manifestation like this time. What made it different?
On my spiritual path, I have been training for not wanting anything for more than 30 years and I kind of believe that spirituality has nothing to do with wanting material things. Now I have to agree that we can get what we want (if it is divinely meant for us) if we put our thought into the right words (affirmation). But the most important thing is, we have to let go of it after having that affirmation (something like we-wei or action by non-action).

[mojomojo]

When I look back, attending mass every Sunday morning as a child, even then, I remember been annoyed at priests, whose regular sermon of money been the root of all evil, contradicted themselves with more regularity, by asking the parishioners if they could not find there way to put a little extra in the collection baskets, sometimes a whole sermon would be taken up with words of humiliation and guilt in order to extract the extra coinage, it was around this time my link with religion was severed.
Usually coming from a poor background, leaves most with a poverty mindset, and mostly this is what they bring into their life, but for some, it spurs them into making wealth their priority, I guess
we all know examples of both.
There seems to be a lot of concepts taken for granted in spirituality, those with money are not truly happy, what nonsense, these people are usually at the top of their game, have all that life has to offer, would consider spiritual people as failures, who could not make it in life, consider this life it and they are going to get all they can.
Not saying there is anything wrong with money, even accumulating vast amounts of the stuff, it's when money serves you, changes to, you serve money, at any cost.
There are people who genuinely do not have any interest in money or material things, but they may not necessarily be spiritual, and those who have nothing, that climb under the spiritual blanket for cover, reasoning for their predicament.
New Age thinking of the law of attraction, utilising the mind to manifest ones desire's, for me has a warning bell attached.
In Wicca, they use affirmations and visualisation as means of obtaining results, when done for the benefit of others, white magic, when done to harm others, black magic, when done for the self, well put your own colour on it, it just seems like consumerism by another means.
I do feel the mind can create anything, and if it doesn't materialise, may be blocked by ingrained belief patterns in the subconscious, or not bringing everything into alignment for manifestation, I believe we could be absolutely stunned by what the mind is capable of.
Maybe we are caught up in old trends, to be spiritual equals not been material, it gives us an identity.
Maybe, we should go for it, put all our effort into manifesting our hearts desires, but what stops us.
Surely if everything is of God, it is ours to have, so why don't we?

[donq]

Hi Robert,
In my country, too. Monks and a lot of people who called themselves Buddhists, try to get a lot of money to build material things in the name of Buddhism. I mean they ask for money collection for building temples, monasteries, Buddha statues etc. As far as I've studied and practiced (real practice) Buddhism for three decades, I feel that those are only the bark of Buddhism, not its essence/core. Buddha never taught his disciples to do that! Even forbid about it!
Anyway, one day a venerable monk kindly explained to me and my friends that we didn't need to be upset about that. At least, those Buddhist material things will last long, even longer than the real teaching of Buddha (which has already faded sway). Besides, the core cannot last without its bark!
There's a joke in my country that those who go to temple (study Buddhism) are the following persons: broken heart, jobless, or even homeless. hahaha. I used to have some friends who worked for NGO. They always talked about how to behave nicely to poor people but it turned out that they themselves could not do that at their homes, in their families. And most (if not all) of them came from the middle class to high class families. So it seemed while poor people work so hard to gain money for their living, some rich people just wanted to be poor, to look cool in the eyes of others.
Here comes wanting. Buddha taught that two causes of sufferings are wanting something that you cannot get and/or getting something that you don't want. In this sense, everyone, poor or rich, is equal, to suffer.
I do like what you said here,

"Maybe we are caught up in old trends, to be spiritual equals not been material, it gives us an identity.Maybe, we should go for it, put all our effort into manifesting our hearts desires, but what stops us.Surely if everything is of God, it is ours to have, so why don't we?"

Yes, very true, Robert. My identity might be never wanted a tangible something. And that was why my life has been more downs than ups. I get used to it until it doesn't matter to me any more. But that's the point. Though a loud noise doesn't bother me any more (as a member of my group I mention) But if I don't replace it with something better, it will still keep coming. And if I still don't want anything, how can something, good ones, will come to me?

Very good point, Robert!   
     
       

[aceofcups]

Monty,

Just a bunch of questions that comes to my mind in this thread. ( hahaha)....

Affirmations versus Listening and Trusting.  Accepting what we have and working with it Versus desiring more and more into our life.   Is it one or the other?   Is there a Middle Way?   Is there only one correct way for all people?

I to have worked with the Concept of desiring less and learning to only be very loosely attached to having material "stuff" is a correct spiritual way for one trying to live a spiritual life. or for some --- Of trying to put having stuff in its proper place in grand scheme of things. As you know Monty from experience many traditional spiritual schools or retreats have the concept of having little and desiring nothing as a correct and beneficial spiritual discipline to follow.

Then I have seen and spoken to many New Ager's who are into "Abundance" and affirmation thinking,, The Secret mentally that we should go out and get whatever we desire because it is our God-given right and we should put our mind and efforts into getting what we want and believe that doing so is being spiritual  ---  Have spoken to others who see that type of Mind set,, as just another form of Greed which has arisen in some people's mind as now sanctioned OK because it was blessed OK by some new age teacher.

i have seen many astrology charts of people, in which their planetary placements seems to indicate a life lesson for that person was working and dealing with material wealth and abundance ..... and other charts which have a strong indication that lack of material stuff or working with less was a chosen life lesson for that person.    -----  where does that fit into the having or not having equation as ne correct way for all?

Personally I feel more comfortable in Being Present, meditating and aligning with my Higher Self and Asking and Trusting ( part of Listening) that I will get exactly what I need to work with in any particular cycle. To me the real trick, if you can call it a trick, is to really be aligned to Higher Will and not just say one is aligned -- and to follow as Monty said - the we-wei.   I get lots of stuff I need all the time on many different levels.

Sometimes to much,, then that brings up another question,,, what does one do if they have more then they really need? Overabundance is the other side of Abundance?

peace... sorry for the rambling
ace

[donq]

Hi Ace,

Hmm...I don't know if my meetup group has influenced on me a little bit or not. On the one hand, I still do believe as what Karen said above, (let me quote her here again):

"To me happiness is not about wanting or getting. I am truly happy, when I'm not wanting anything, and just content at peace in the moment. There is nothing peaceful about yearning, wanting or striving. And often when someone get's what they want, they quickly forget it and are on to the next thing."

But on the other hand, I have found many things starting come to me (synchronicity) after I have tried to do some affirmation (during my spiritual journey, coincidences happened to me almost everyday but it rarely happened lately). For example, one of my reader sent a book and a letter to thank me after I wrote that book almost 30 years ago. (He is a doctor and also a writer). Why now? Why after I tried some affirmation. (which is "every person I meet is a golden link in the chain of my good). And during 30 years, I never got any personal letter from my readers like this before.  
Please don't get me wrong, I read/heard about this kind of new age thinking so long time ago, and even translated "MetaSecret" into Thai (just for earning my living). My point is...let me put it this way, I still don't really "want" anything, but just want to experiment it. I even said once in my group that I wanted to know how the affirmation works more than really getting what affirmation could bring me. Sure, it seemed no one in my group had no idea what I was talking about. hahaha
I asked my group, if affirmation really works, then, the writers/gurus who wrote/taught about affirmation could get anything they wanted? I don't think so. At least, they still could not get something they "did not" want, and had to suffer because of it. (Sure, I didn't really say this to my group. Safety first! hahaha).
Anyway, did I still miss something? Action by non-action seems to be the best (spiritual) strategy (mind set) but affirmation seems to work so well for me too, as I mentioned above. But again, will it backfire later? I honestly don't know. What I wonder is, for example, if my (old) mind set is "every bad person I meet is still my best teacher", then, that will bring only bad persons to me, to be my best teacher? hahaha And what will happen if I change it to "every person (deletes "bad" here) I meet will only be a chain of my good"? Only different words in mind (set) could make the difference?  (This reminds me of classic example, "don't think about pink elephant")       

 

 

[mojomojo]

Many years ago, I had a tarot card reading, and as each usual topic was commented on, she then decided wealth was next, to which her immediate reaction was, " ah" followed by a pause and then, "but you will always have enough to eat and a roof over your head".
A few years back, I bought a book on numerology, read it and did a few readings for friends and myself, I was amazed at the accuracy, but was quite taken back, the same comment Ace made came to light, everyone comes into this life for different lessons and to do different things, some do come in to acquire vast amounts of money, their task the effect that takes on the personality, and others I feel can work themselves to the bone, it will never happen for them, it is for this reason, using energy to bring to you what is not coming naturally, makes me wary.
We would probably save ourselves a lot of heartache, if we had readings of whatever description, to indicate our life plan.
Personally, I find material things a burden, it seems a responsibility comes with them that I don't want to carry, I can be happy and peaceful with the bare minimal, anymore than that and I have to worry about it, so I guess my mindset is in alignment with my life plan, which seems to anger no end, those who feel it's all about the money.
Each to their own, it just helps to know what your own is, and not fight it.

[aceofcups]

Monty,,, you should watch out what you wish for or set your thoughts on and beware of OverAbundance (hahaha)

You may get it!!!

[donq]

WAH!

It's that overabundance, really? (gulp!)

This picture will be in my mind (set) for a very long...urh...long time.