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Post by tribunalofmercy on Jan 27, 2015 14:44:10 GMT
When I talked about walking around a block and not cutting corners, donq asked, But what if we Have to? And it does seem there are times when we are convinced we “have” to. Where is the line, then? What brings us to the point, in Any situation, where we feel we “have” to do something that perhaps we might not otherwise do?
Some of it may be a result of conditioning – we are taught a certain way is correct, and even if We are not sure of that, we have seen that Others believe it, which affects our conditioned thinking. Hunger has been mentioned as well, and that may be a good example. I have not experienced the kind of hunger that would cause someone to act against their basic principles, or beliefs (here we connect to beliefs, perhaps?)….when I was younger I fasted for three days, but it was a Choice and not because of hunger – it was to Teach me something. Even now I may not eat for a day, but again, it is to be disciplined and not because of Hunger. So how could I possibly say, with conviction, that I “know” how I would think, how I would act, in the face of such hunger?
Perhaps a better example for me would be to relate to what I Do know. And that is, a lack of money. In the past there were times when I had No money and (thought) to need money in order to pay for something, or to eat, or to give to someone I loved very much; to be warm, or to have a place to stay….many things. There were times, in my past, when I compromised my “moral values” and sold something that was otherwise very important to me, in order to have what seemed to be Needed. At one time I even stole from someone that I perceived did not Need what was stolen, so that I could have. It seems to me there is much more difficulty when concern is for someone Else, like when raising a child…values I would never have thought to compromise for myself I could imagine compromising to take care of my son. This is to my shame, but I say it to show that we can easily consider throwing out our “righteous” moral values when we are truly tested…..and yet, is there truly a need? Is there a way to keep our values no matter What the personal cost to us?
Something I see now, and I truly saw Then but did not always take to heart, was the great love of the one I call God to take care of things we Perceive we need to Control ourselves, even at the cost of our “moral values”…..a lifetime of Tests, in a way, to see just how much we will sacrifice of Ourselves, our ego, our pride, our will, our Need to “control” the outcome of any situation.
One book I did read in college that influenced me very much was The Cost of Discipleship, by Deitrich Bonhoeffer. Not just because of his words but because of his Life in the midst of suffering, and what he came to See as a result of it. There are many who have experienced such suffering and, as a result, be more Sure of what they believe and how they will Live such belief even when sorely tested.
Recently, Mojomojo talked about the experiences of purchasing clocks that he wanted/needed, and of days that he has felt Blessed by a greater power than he….Is it only Law of Attraction that we can credit for those experiences? Only divine coincidence, or a correct alignment of geometric symmetry that brings us the blessings? We understand how cause-and-effect play out, to some degree, but if we do not like the experiences that we Cause, even under extreme testing, how do we truly Change or even Transcend our actions (the ‘cause’) that create the effects that hurt us, or shame us - those situations that cause us to wonder what role “spirituality” really Has in our manifested lives?
I’ll add more to this later; what do you think? How do we Know Ourselves – who we truly Are, when there is a Need to know?
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donq
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Post by donq on Jan 27, 2015 21:37:08 GMT
Mary Anne,
How do we Know Ourselves – who we truly Are, when there is a Need to know?
Gruntal said a very interesting on another thread: "Concentration is not the natural state of things."
Let me adapt it here: Knowing oneself is or is not the natural state of things? Does knowing oneself mean natural or counter-natural growing? To be more specific, does spirituality grow naturally (by itself)? Or we have to cultivate/practice it, to know ourselves?
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Post by tribunalofmercy on Jan 27, 2015 22:36:08 GMT
Is running a natural state for an infant? Is higher math a natural state for a toddler? What are natural states, if not fluid? Perhaps 'knowing ourselves' is an ongoing thing...so as not to let us get Bored.
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donq
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Post by donq on Jan 27, 2015 22:58:57 GMT
Hahaha! No, No. You (intentionally) mixed two logics together (just to annoy me?) :-)
Running has nothing to do with an infant; higher math has nothing to do with a toddler. They are (what to call in English) irrelevent context. The right question should be, "an infant can swim naturally?" (I used to see the video of this kind and was so upset. Throw a baby in a pool? I think it was not time for a baby to do that.) As for toddler, they can naturally walk firmly by themselves or they have to "practice" to be able to walk? My point is if spirituality is a natural state, everyone on earth should be already enlightened.
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Post by tribunalofmercy on Jan 27, 2015 23:22:36 GMT
haha - you are learning me, Monty (I create fuzzy logic because I do not want you to get Bored) I still think spirituality is a fluid thing, not limited by rigid thought that it should either be There, or Not. However, we could try it another way: for us in this form, the body is a Natural thing. But the infant does not have Understanding of its body, and a toddler does not yet have mastery of the body. It is something they must grow into. On another thread Karen said - "The inspiration to evolve spiritually is already a manifestation of the presence of God within, and it’s certainly indicative of good karma. Just to want to know truth, to evolve, to improve oneself, to become a better person, to fulfill one’s potential – those are all inspirations. And the person doesn’t make them up; they just come to them. It’s like an innate desire to fulfill your potential. That potential as one evolves becomes more and more identified in spirituality – the capacity to love, to forgive, to appreciate, to see the beauty in all that exists, to live in peace and harmony instead of discord and strife. The only requirement is to do whatever you do to the best of your capacity and leave the rest up to God.” Dr. David Hawkins, Beyond the Ordinary Though perhaps his words are not all-inclusive, this resonates with me...somehow, in my mind, it goes back to what I said about my guides. They show me the line between "conditioned thinking" and higher thinking only because they are not/no longer Human. When I do anything that causes me to think one way or the other about myself, good or bad, it is a reflection of my conditioning, perhaps? And if I were to look at another person at that moment, I would see myself - not truly the other person - and think, feel or react in some way, based on my Conditioning. To feel guilt, or shame, or pride, or Anything (the ambiguity of my moral questions).... But my guides do not Have the human reflection to me anymore, so when I look at them I see something Else. I see myself as Spirit, without conditioned thinking attached. It allows me a detached view of whatever has transpired and of myself, so that I can get back on the Path again. Have I always been a spiritual person? I believe so..that is my Belief, but while I agree with the words of David Hawkins I cannot say I believe all are born facing a positive direction. What we grow into may be more because of conditioning or Divine intervention, according to whatever karmic plan or Higher Purpose has been put before us, but I believe we still have a Choice in the matter, to some extent, and the Knowledge of ourselves is a core tool to help us in that.
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donq
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Post by donq on Jan 27, 2015 23:33:01 GMT
If it were not you, I would not tell that. (Ace know very well that I don't like to argue.) :-)
As you said on another thread:
I wonder if the mosquito is just another way of giving the Lesson
I wonder if we could create lesson by ourselves for the sake of learning and growing? Or we have to wait until the right time for the right lesson to come?
P.S. My mom's just woke up. I already made her breakfast but have to help her eat now. Be back later.
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mojomojo
Go deep enough, and there is a bedrock of truth, however hard.
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Post by mojomojo on Jan 28, 2015 10:19:22 GMT
Is spirituality our natural state,
A mother returned home from hospital with her new born child. She also had a four year old son. Her four year old was very eager to talk to the new born child, but the mother wanted the new born to rest. But the four year old became more and more insistent, the mother thought, what is wrong with him, he has already seen the new born. Eventually she let the four year old in to see the new born child. The four year old said to the new born, " tell me about GOD, I'm starting to forget."
Will our morals change under pressure, if GOD, is not part of our life? I think we might be quite shaken, at what we are capable of.
Will our morals change under pressure, if GOD, is our life? It's a bit of a paradox, if we understand GOD, and that is part of our life, we should not suffer from lack. But if we did, wouldn't that be a test, to see who we truly are.
I have read of people, who came into full enlightenment, who lost all interest in the material world, to the extent, were they allowed themselves, to just, decay, basically, not sure how true that is, but then again, if you come to full realisation, that all this is illusion, what exactly is decaying.
I believe everyone suffers, why would you look within, otherwise. I believe all suffering, when broken down, is a lack of love. I believe all suffering stems from man, And the truly sad part, is there is no reason for any of it.
Robert.
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donq
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Post by donq on Jan 28, 2015 12:00:45 GMT
Hi Robert,
Good post!
There was a spiritual guru thousands years ago. He believed he attained so much spiritual knowledge. He he had to wear very tight belt all the time, to contain his knowledge without spilling. I knew some people who never talked about spirituality but they got better (natural) state of mind more than some spiritual gurus I knew. There’s some explanation in Buddhism which goes like this: We were born which pure state of mind but we contaminate them later. When we started to nourish our bodies, we started to nourish our ego, too. This is my body; this is ME. This is my stuff etc. YOU insult ME. YOU try to take MY stuffs etc. We lost our natural stats of mind that way, more and more. So, somehow, spirituality has to go back to the basic, to that natural state of mind. (or to God). The same as after we’ve got ill, we have to heal ourselves to regain our normal (natural) state of health again. The more we got ill, the more we have to do hard work.
P.S. Do that four year old son and the new born child call you, “Dad”? :-) Congratulation!
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mojomojo
Go deep enough, and there is a bedrock of truth, however hard.
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Post by mojomojo on Jan 28, 2015 13:42:16 GMT
Hi Donq, No, congratulations are not necessary, I'am not the father, but if I had a son, I would be very proud if he did talk like that.
Robert.
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Post by tribunalofmercy on Jan 28, 2015 19:49:58 GMT
I imagine there are Many things I do not know, even as I consider these issues. I imagine that we truly can Not ‘know’, for certain, how we may think or act until a time of testing Comes, no matter how we plan or prepare. I do not only ask questions to elicit responses, yet it is a Hope that others consider the serious questions of life…. Kaz recently mentioned, somewhere, that she wondered if age truly had anything to do with spiritual growth, with the cultivation of wisdom; I imagine the experiences of life are often only gotten as we age, so what she mentioned makes Sense. No matter the decisions we make in those moments when we are Tested (as donq alluded to in another thread), it seems there is more than just the Single decision that comes about. Every action has its consequence; every cause has its effect. There are many angles to approach this from, and you can help me decide if we should Run with any of those – such as, do we Know how much of us is conditioned and how much is instinct, until we are tested? Do we know what is spiritual and what is natural? Truly, even when we are tested, how far must the test take us before we do not Care about the opinion of any other? In order to know ourselves, I wonder if we do not first have to face ourselves when No one else is looking? Looking inside ourselves finds us Completely away from others, spending time in places only We can go - and in those moments I believe we become Closer to knowing ourselves than any other time. One thing I wrote about is that my guides are ones to ask me Hard Questions, for a reason…such as, if I say, I Love People, they might ask me, “Really? How Much do you love people?” - and they will get me Thinking about it, considering all the ‘what ifs’ that go with truly Loving others. Many hard questions have come up since last year, not ones that can be answered in just a few minutes. I share this with you, which will never be in a book: One evening after questions, I got the impression they were pleased with what I had learned so far and the answers given, and one of those who was there said to me, “I’ll give you Anything you want.” …This had been a Very sober evening; these beings are fully capable of doing Many things, and I have learned it. This, also, was a test – like the wishes granted by a genie, you know? Always a test of character, and always with a Cost, lol. Still, I had a very human moment and Wondered if I truly wanted anything. It’s not about money, or power, or fame, is it? Someone recently said something like that on another site – thinking of fame and fortune – those are practically clichés from television and stuff and do not interest me anyway, but if you had someone offer you ‘anything’, would you at least Think about it? I did – for about a Minute, lol. Do you wonder what I chose? Hint: Nothing that I do not already Have But it is the moments like that, I believe, that help Prepare me for those times when I am Truly tested….when life may throw curveballs of suffering at me Now, so that I will at least know what I Want to believe, and do, in those moments – so that I will feel I have a Chance at making Right decisions which, for me, would never bring shame.
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