Can a (real) friendship/relationship be made?

[donq]

Can a (real) friendship/relationship be made?
It should happen by itself, should it not?

(I used the word “relationship” in the broad/abstract sense.
Not only with someone but also with something we “intentionally” chose to get or connect to.
Hmm…maybe the right word would rather be “connection.”?
Yes, this includes any guru we intend to follow, books we chose to read etc.)
[As a Taoist said, “A teacher will come when a student is ready. But not before that.”
This means we cannot “intend” to find our teachers?]

And you might already heard of this (cliché) story:

Boy met girl.
He (intentionally) flirted with her.
Finally they were married.
Or she dumped him (or vice versa.) 

If we are trying to make a new connection intentionally, isn’t it like trying to make an artificial rain? It’s not real,
at least not a natural thing that will happen only when the time is ripe/right?

I appreciate any idea to share it here. Thanks.

P.S. Yes, maybe it’s ok to make a mistake. At least, we can learn from our mistakes.
It’s so normal that we might get some wrong connections/relationships on the way
so that we will be wiser to choose in the next time.
[But what I’m thinking is about wu-wei or “action by non-action” (action without result expectation in Taoism.]
My point is… if we already tried so many things in our past but failed,
then, when we should stop? And where should we stop? Sure, stopping beforehand is not a good idea.
We just fool ourselves by doing that and will never be able to learn anything from our mistakes.
Besides, maybe success is waiting for us at the next corner? :-)

There’s a saying in Vajrayana Buddhism (Tantra.) It’s said something like,
“if we fell on a ground, we have to use that very ground to help us back on our feet again.
Anything else will be only our fancies and never work.”

Just as water that has entered the ear may be removed by water
And just as a thorn may be removed by a thorn,
so those who know how, remove passion by mean of passion itself.
Just as a washerman removed the grime from a garment by means of grime,
So the wise man renders himself free of impurity by means of impurity itself.
(from Cittavisuddhiprakarana of Aryadeva)

Hmm…maybe I divert. What I try to ask is we should detach ourselves from any connections/relationship,
if we always failed to find the right ones. Or we should use that failures to stop ourselves from trying a new connection?        

[baangus]

Mar 26, 2014 16:13:51 GMT donq said:

What I try to ask is we should detach ourselves from any connections/relationship,
if we always failed to find the right ones. Or we should use that failures to stop ourselves from trying a new connection?       

Hi donq. I can only speak from my own experience and perspective. I believe the reason we're here is to learn what love is and what it means to love someone. Therefore I don't think one should detach themselves or ever stop searching for the right one and/or for new connections as you put it, no. Like so many other things in this life, love can and does manifest in miraculous ways. You will know that if and when you find someone who you love with all your heart and soul. With someone like that in your life, every day on this planet truly does seem like an amazing, wonderful miracle.

I still refer back to my first guru Kahlil Gibran when it comes to spouting life truths: Think not you can direct the course of love, for love, if it finds you worthy, directs your course. This has been my experience. Love finds us, it is not the other way around.

[donq]

Hi baangus,

Thanks for your quick response. And…you got me! :-)
Yes, another (worldly) version of the question on my post was…
should I stop all those dating sites I’ve been trying for years. Hahaha!
Kidding, just kidding above.

Yes, agree with Gibran. And…urh…
are you sure you are not that “Nature boy?” :-)

There was a boy
A very strange
Enchanted boy
They say he wandered
Very far, very far
Over land and sea
A little shy
And sad of eye
But very wise was he
And then one day
A magic day
He passed my way
And while we spoke
Of many things
Fools and kings
This he said to me
"The greatest thing
You'll ever learn
Is just to love
And be loved
In return."

(I’m kind of like Lizz Wright’s version and Cher’s. Haven’t had a chance to listen to Nat King Cole’s version yet.)

P.S. Kaz used to tell me that I should use my real photo for my avatar. So, here it is.
The caption: Me, in the winter here, a few months ago. I tried my best to show my pipe on the photo and tried to look like Gandalf in Lord of the Rings. But failed. lol

[baangus]

Mar 26, 2014 20:00:48 GMT donq said:

Yes, another (worldly) version of the question on my post was…
should I stop all those dating sites I’ve been trying for years. Hahaha!

Haven’t had a chance to listen to Nat King Cole’s version yet.)

Hi donq. I laughed out loud at that first comment. Gosh, I did the ad-dating thing once in my mid-thirties and ended up arranging an afternoon walk with a very nice lady. It wasn't my style, but I could see how it would work for many people. Experiencing closeness with someone, whatever the form, is indeed a worldly and worthy activity.

I grew up listening to my mother's record collection: Nat King Cole, Dean Martin, Jim Nabors, etc. Dear Lonely Hearts was my favorite song at the age of 7; played it over and over. I was an incurable romantic right from the start.

[donq]

Hi baangus,

Yes, more than agree with you. What you said reminds me of an old country song here, in my country.
Its lyrics went like this:

The address on the envelop is…to me,
But the letter in it, isn’t…to me.

And yes, I got that similar experience once with one of my (ex) penpal.
I already knew it was CC email, and that was ok for me, but the last time,
it was the same email that was already sent to me once. Hahaha!

When I was about 25 years old, I liked this song of Elvis:

“But I can't help falling in love with you”
But I forgot about this lyrics:

“Wise men say only fools rush in”

So, 10 years later, I got divorce. lol

After I passed my 35, I was kind of like another Elvis’s song:

Let the stars fade and fall
And I won't care at all
As long as I have you
Let's think of the future
Forget the past
You're not my first love
But you're my last…

Then, 12 years later, I got my second divorce. Hahaha!

From 5-6 years ago, until now, I like another song. "The Letters" of Leonard Cohen. :-)

You never liked to get
The letters that I sent.
But now you've got the gist
Of what my letters meant.
You're reading them again,
The ones you didn't burn.
You press them to your lips,
My pages of concern.
I said there'd been a flood.
I said there's nothing left.
I hoped that you would come.
I gave you my address.
Your story was so long,
The plot was so intense,
It took you years to cross
The lines of self-defense.
The wounded forms appear:
The loss, the full extent;
And simple kindness here,
The solitude of strength.
You walk into my room.
You stand there at my desk,
Begin your letter to
The one who's coming next.

What I try to say is...there are steps in human being. Learning. Experience.
And yes, spiritual understanding. If only, 35 yeas ago, I liked Leonard Cohen's song, maybe....

[donq]

Just finished listening to "Dear Lonely Hearts" on youtube.
Wow! I like it, nay, I love it. No, no, I love it just because
...urh..it's kind of so good. hahaha.
Thanks baangus. :-)
Yes, you were so romantic even when you were only 7 years old.

[baangus]

Mar 28, 2014 4:55:40 GMT donq said:

When I was about 25 years old, I liked this song of Elvis:

“But I can't help falling in love with you”
But I forgot about this lyrics:

“Wise men say only fools rush in”

So, 10 years later, I got divorce. lol

Ha-ha! Hey donq, I made the same short-sighted mistake in my late 20s. As forgettable as that period was, the experience absolutely influenced my philosophical approach to everything in life. If something in life isn't working - job, relationship, living situation - change it and do it NOW. Get on with things. The second-guessing and mind-confusion is much worse for one's heath and soul well-being, than stepping off the cliff into the insecurity of the unknown (the fear of which is usually what keeps us from making life changes). With love and relationships, one either loves and respects the other on a sincere soul level, or one doesn't and so for the good of both parties they need to move on.

I'm a big Leonard Cohen fan being from Canada and all. I've been listening to him since 1976. Wonderful live concert DVD if you're interested is Leonard Cohen: I'm Your Man (DVD, 2006).

[baangus]

Mar 26, 2014 16:13:51 GMT donq said:

If we are trying to make a new connection intentionally, isn’t it like trying to make an artificial rain? It’s not real,
at least not a natural thing that will happen only when the time is ripe/right?

Hi again donq. I missed that comment of yours the first time and I need to respond given my previous 'advice.' There are no specific rules to follow. You follow your heart. Years ago I was very sick, and one aspect of my recovery process involved reviewing my life to understand why I had come to that place of damaged soul-being (the source of most illnesses). I came up with four specific things. One of those had to do with my hanging around too long in failed personal relationships, coupled with my failed dream to find true love on a real soul level.

When I was well enough, I set out and traveled across the country with the specific intent to find and re-connect with someone I knew two decades previous. I found that person, and the result was the most profound loving relationship I could have imagined. Beyond what I could have imagined actually. Because having never experienced love on that level, I had no way of knowing how love ends up guiding the relationship and one's actions. That is what I wanted to relate to you when I first read your thread title. Yes, real relationships are possible and it's not just a fairy tale. And yes, make new connections intentionally if your heart is telling you to do that.

[donq]

Again, agree with you.:-)
As for Cohen, I have almost all of his songs and some of his video.
But somehow, I think I like this voice when he got older, not when he was a young man.
I even have novels written by him but haven't finished them yet.
But...I should stop here, before I turn this forum into...urh...Leonard Cohen forum. hahaha.

[sparklekaz]

I think you are talking about special friends here Monty with the hope that it might develop into something deeper. As most people will have friends. Buddies, chums to laugh and share things with. While I think it is healthy to be comfortable with who we are and enjoy our own company. I think it is normal to want to share our life with someone on a loving intimate level. I don't believe there is anything artificial in making a conscious decision to seek out or want this kind of love in our lives. If you were not ready for it, it would not be on your mind in the first place would it?

There has always been places to go and activities to participate in where it was condusive for couples to meet and mingle. When I was a teenager, it was at the local youth club and disco. College, work etc. Often girls would go out in groups and so did the boys and at some point in the evening we'd all meet up somewhere. For mature adults though it is not quite as straightforward is it. Particularly once you get past a certain age. Still though there are ways of meeting new people. Through family and friends and taking up new hobbies. And if it is your normal thing, in the local pub. The internet I feel is just another place to meet people. Even if it is not at first in the physical. In some ways it's not much different then a blind date. But at least if you've been talking to someone for a while online, you at least get a idea of their personality and interests. And there is that chemistry, that can traverse the airways. More then you'd get if a friend set you up on a date, with someone you didn't know and had never met isn't it.

The only danger with internet dating is that there is more scope for deception. To be more safety conscious. So if meeting someone this way, it is always best to be cautious and make sure you tell others what you are doing. And meet in a public place etc and take it very slowly. I don't think there is anything bad or contrived about deciding you are ready for love and actively seeking it out. All I'd say is, don't project unrealistic expectations onto anyone. Don't rush into anything and in your head already be heading down the isle. That will only send most people heading for the hills fast...lol As in any relationship, it is only by getting to know someone well, no matter how you meet, that you really know if they are right for you or not.

Love and light
Kaz

[donq]

Thanks Kaz,
Will write my full post tomorrow.

[donq]

Hi baangus and Kaz,

First all all. Let me thanks both of you again for your response (s.)
I can feel your sympathy, compassion and very goodwill. I really appreciate it.

Hence this post is to repay your kindness. Nothing else.

About 30 years ago, when I started practicing mindfulness, one of my spiritual teacher was a venerable monk.
He was an Abbot of a little forest temple, located very from the cities. I was told that before he was a monk,
his wife cheated on him. But when his ex and her new husband got serious ill, my teacher
(that time still wasn’t a monk) still went to take care both of them very well !?!

His story very impressed on me. But that time I could only imagine how suffer he had to pass.
Until that very situation happened to me. Like teacher, like student, really. Lol

The question I raised on this post was about an old man looking back to his life in full review.
Urh…ok, at least 50 something is considered to be an old person in my country, ok? :-)

And no, I didn’t pretend to be cool here. Never! Even with my long time spiritual practice (30 years)
it was still so hard for me to pass that toughest and self-pity period. As Kaz already knew,
I used to die once, was in ICU more than 2 months, but it was only serious physical suffering,
that time I had to deal with serious mental suffering!  

Let me add something here before I go on. It’s very hard to tell the difference
between an empty bottle and a bottle full of water. They look so alike. What I try to say is someone may think that,
even my story was true, I’m trying to make a big deal (drama/scene) here, to gain attention, or even friendship.
That’s so normal in worldly world? And that was my question on this post.

If I told my story to gain your attention (or even friendship), that would be so ugly (and fake)
from the spiritual point of view, wouldn’t it? [even perhaps it’s normal and ok in worldly point of view.]

As an old man, when I review my life, I wonder about the real meaning of friendship/relationship.
Frankly and honestly speak, I’m kind of feel indifferent now. To have or not to have, it’s really indifferent for me.
This doesn’t mean I don’t want, it only means I know very well, too well, about the wrong friendship/relationship.  

This brings us back to the question I raised here. This time, not for me, really. Just for the sake of (spiritual) talking/understanding.
How do we “choose” the right friendship? What should we do if that turns out to be only fake one?

What I meant by “fake” friendship/relationship was the pretending. We can see them on TV/news.
We know that they really hate their ex, but they still pretend to be “friendly” anytime they met each other. :-)

Or another example, our bosses. Maybe they are so…bad/cruel, but we still have to pretend to be nice with them,
just to keep our job. etc.? Or we might know some (good) wife who has to bear with their (bad) husband
just to keep her status as a wife, and to be survive (some woman have to depend on her about money.)

There are so many of these situations in the real life. Maybe too many.
Until, when someone wanted to be free himself/herself from his/her tyrannous boss,
everyone looked at him/her as if he/she was so aggressive.

What about spiritual point of view? Do we have to be always nice to bad/fake persons?
Isn’t that our pretending? Even we honestly love them no matter what/who they are because we are deep into spirituality,
the question still remains, are we spoiling them? Or worse than that, are we afraid that they will not like/love us
if we act/react in the other ways? Are we keeping our “friendships/connections” this way?

Again, don’t get me wrong here. I write this post with a light mind/feeling. I know very well that life is already so serious,
I will never want to put any seriousness into life. And I don’t like seriousness. Hahaha!

Thanks for reading this post and sorry for any typos.

Love and urh…like  :-)
DonQ

P.S. Let me friendly tease baangus a bit here: :-)
“When I was well enough, I set out and traveled across the country with the specific intent to find
and re-connect with someone I knew two decades previous. I found that person, and the result was
the most profound loving relationship I could have imagined.”
Ah!...great idea! Hmm…the only problem (for me) is…
all women I used to know two decades ago still married and have lots and lots of kids now. Hahaha!

[baangus]

Mar 29, 2014 5:54:29 GMT donq said:

Let me add something here before I go on. It’s very hard to tell the difference
between an empty bottle and a bottle full of water. They look so alike.

This brings us back to the question I raised here. This time, not for me, really. Just for the sake of (spiritual) talking/understanding.
How do we “choose” the right friendship? What should we do if that turns out to be only fake one?
There are so many of these situations in the real life. Maybe too many.

What about spiritual point of view? Do we have to be always nice to bad/fake persons?
Isn’t that our pretending? Even we honestly love them no matter what/who they are because we are deep into spirituality,
the question still remains, are we spoiling them? Or worse than that, are we afraid that they will not like/love us
if we act/react in the other ways? Are we keeping our “friendships/connections” this way?

Hi donq. Yes, the two bottles look alike and I understand your analogy. But why are you sitting around staring at bottles when you should be out looking for relationships? In all seriousness (but not too serious of course!) my answer does have an element of truth to it. You can't analyze a relationship unless you're experiencing it. You enter the relationship knowing what you want, and you won't settle for less. And if it is less than what you are willing to settle for, you move on. As mature adults we're certainly capable of that level of discernment given we know ourselves so much better than we did when younger.

I don't think we can choose the 'right' relationship because I don't think it works that way. That's what I've been suggesting in my previous posts. You can choose to form a relationship with someone, and then discover as you go along if it's right for you. Past that, you can always do the Leonard Cohen thing:
Baby, I've been waiting,
I've been waiting night and day.
I didn't see the time,
I waited half my life away.
There were lots of invitations
and I know you sent me some,
but I was waiting
for the miracle, for the miracle to come.
I'm actually more optimistic than Leonard in that I believe such miracles actually can and do happen.

I don't think it's pretending to respond in a polite manner when someone is being rude for example, and to tell them how you feel about their behaviour. But if you've already reached the point where you see them as bad or fake, then I would suggest the relationship should have ended a long time before that. If there's no respect for each other, why hang around? This applies to personal relationships, and obviously it's different if you're describing work relationships where you don't have the same freedom of choice.

[donq]

Hi baangus,

Hmm…but…I'm only a fly. You should show me only a philosophy.  

"What is your aim in philosophy?
To show the fly the way out of the fly-bottle." -Wittgenstein

You should show me the way "out" of the bottle, not "into" the bottle. :-)

Besides, what if I choose the wrong bottle?
Sure, I'll die, right? Because I'm a fly, not a fish. hahaha!

Ok, just kidding. Thank you (and Kaz) for words of wisdom. I really feel so “alive.” :-)

 

P.S. About Cohen in our context, I prefer his "Recitation": (repeat, in our context about "relationship") :-)

...I know you had to lie to me
I know you had to cheat
To pose all hot and high
Behind the veils of sheer deceit

Our perfect porn aristocrat
So elegant and cheap
I'm old but I'm still into that
A thousand kisses deep

I'm good at love, I'm good at hate
It's in between I freeze
Been working out but it's too late
(It's been too late for years)

The autumn moved across your skin
Got something in my eye
A light that doesn't need to live
And doesn't need to die

A riddle in the book of love
Obscure and obsolete
And witnessed here in time and blood
A thousand kisses deep...

You see I'm just another snowman
Standing in the rain and sleet
Who loved you with his frozen love
His secondhand physique
With all he is and all he was
A thousand kisses deep

But you don't need to hear me now
And every word I speak
It counts against me anyhow
A thousand kisses deep

[sparklekaz]

Thank you Monty for sharing your words. They really touched me. I really felt your honesty. I can tell you've been through some very painful and testing times. I want to share some of my thoughts on love and relationships. Something I have thought about a lot and like you have known what it's like to feel pain and disappointment. The one thing I take comfort from in all of my experiences, is that they have taught me a lot about myself. Which is where I know the real work has to happen.

In many ways I believe we ourselves are to blame when relationships disappoint us and we inevitably get hurt. I am not talking about who did what or what went wrong. I'm referring to the way in which we expect other people to live up to our expectations. If we are all honest, we have this fantasy of meeting someone who mirrors us. Shares our interests, goals, dreams and hopes. When often the signs are there, right from the very start, in plain sight that this is not the reality. But we do not want to believe it. We push it to one side. Often reality is not as pleasant as the fantasy is it. And human beings would always rather avoid the painful truth, if it can be ignored.

I do think it is possible to share our lives quite happily with people who are not just like us and enjoy the differences. Indeed many do. Finding variety and a richness in the relationship, that enhances it rather than spoiling it. But that is rare. I do think those people who have a real sensitive, compassionate and spiritual quality to them, are often hurt. They overlook things many who were less tolerant would. They often believe that their love can change people for the better. But what right do we have to change others? We have to accept people as they are and find the strength to move on when being together is more painful, then the thought of being apart. And many never find that strength and cling on.

I've come to the conclusion, that it is only when we really love and respect ourselves, are we mentally, emotionally and spiritually in the right place to find that very precious, 'happy ever after' love. Because from that place we draw to us those people who are genuinely right for us. Until then, there does seem to be this pattern emerging, of being drawn to relationships and creating painful experiences for the purpose of self growth and working through our own weaknesses and insecurities. I've finally come to the conclusion that it's not that we are forever destined to be alone or make mistakes. I have finally realised that to find true love on the outside, we have to first find it within ourselves. Self love and inner peace. No one else, can give that to us. And by constantly searching for it 'out there', in someone else. We are forever destined, to be disappointed.

Love and light
Kaz

[donq]

Beautiful post!, Kaz.

I feel about “spiritual aura” here, on this forum.
It seems there’s no hedgehog's dilemma (porcupine dilemma) here. I love it! :-)

A number of porcupines huddled together for warmth on a cold day in winter;
but, as they began to prick one another with their quills, they were obliged to disperse.
However the cold drove them together again, when just the same thing happened.
At last, after many turns of huddling and dispersing, they discovered that they would be best off
by remaining at a little distance from one another.
In the same way the need of society drives the human porcupines together,
only to be mutually repelled by the many prickly and disagreeable qualities of their nature.
The moderate distance which they at last discover to be the only tolerable condition of intercourse,
is the code of politeness and fine manners; and those who transgress it are roughly told—
in the English phrase—to keep their distance. By this arrangement the mutual need of warmth
is only very moderately satisfied; but then people do not get pricked.
A man who has some heat in himself prefers to remain outside,
where he will neither prick other people nor get pricked himself.

(From “Parerga und Paralipomena” by Schopenhauer)

[luvnlite]

I'm not sure how to copy the quotes from others to respond to a certain point as I've seen you all do lol...figuring stuff out still. But Kaz wrote " I do think those people who have a real sensitive, compassionate and spiritual quality to them, are often hurt. They overlook things many who were less tolerant would. They often believe that their love can change people for the better."
Just wanted to share that this has been my exact experience for so many years and for many tried/failed relationships. When I used to get involved in romantic relationships, I was always POSITIVE that the kind, caring person I just "knew" was under the surface of some very abusive people would come out if I just loved them enough. If I could just show someone that they can be loved ... no matter what, they'd see that love and tenderness was possible and preferable. I guess it was my version of offering "unconditional love". So, just so folks know, that doesn't work so well.
I didn't see it as trying to change the other person, rather I saw it as trying to help, love, and understand them. I truly thought that if I hung on tight during the storm, they would have some sort of epiphany at how wonderful true love is (Ok, I may have watched too many movies).
But as I reflect back on those times now, I see I was trying to change them. I was trying to change a level of love in their hearts to a level in which I would then be loved unconditionally as well. It was by offering this outpouring of love and acceptance (and I'm speaking of acceptance of their abuse, not just the person), that I was actually, desperately clinging to the hope that they would love me passionately ... just as I am.
What I'm finally realizing is what all of you have been saying. Without unconditional love and respect for myself, I will not have, in my life, another person who can offer the same. It comes back to the law of attraction, I think. If I believe that I'm worthless and unlovable, then I will draw to me others who feel that I am worthless and unlovable.
So, for the past 4-5 years, my response to "relationship" possibilities is "NO THANK YOU". I try to remain open to the thought that maybe, if I find that love for me from within, that blessed relationship will find me and it will be "right" and "true" and above all, loving. For now, I just don't see that happening and I've become mostly "ok" with that. One thing is for sure: I have learned a lot of what not to do in a relationship and for now, I'll keep those pearls of wisdom in my heart as I move forward in my journey of life.
Thanks for this post and for all the responses. Namaste

[sparklekaz]

Dear Luv,

Your words "if I just loved them enough. If I could just show someone that they can be loved ... no matter what, they'd see that love and tenderness was possible and preferable. I guess it was my version of offering "unconditional love". I can see you 'got' exactly what I was trying to say. In these relationships, you are giving everything you have, and the other person is giving nothing. And yet, are totally dependent on feeding off your affection. It bolsters their ego and self esteem. And they will not give up that energy source easily. It takes a lot of strength from the giver to withdraw it. To break off this almost parasitical relationship. Harsh words I know, but it is one that has come to me very strongly, as I write this reply.

I am sorry to hear you've been through such tough experiences. But can clearly see that you are stronger and wiser for them. Though at times I know it can be very hard to see it that way. You sound to me like a women who has finally come into herself. Knows what she wants in a relationship. At the very least a recipricol one where energies are equally exchanged in an environment of mutual respect and love. The words of Kahlil Gibran, say it very clearly for me.

But let there be spaces in your togetherness.
And let the winds of heaven dance between you.

Love one another, but make not a bond of love.
Let it rather be a moving sea between the shores of your souls.

Fill each other's cup but drink not from one cup.
Give one another of your bread but eat not from the same loaf.

Sing and dance together and be joyous, but each one of you be
alone--even as the strings of a lute are alone though they quiver
with the same music.

Give your hearts, but not in each others keeping.
For only the hand of Life can contain your hearts.

And stand together yet not too near together:
For the pillars of the temple stand apart,
And the oak tree and the Cyprus grow not in each others shadows.

This to me is what true love is. To be enriched and strengthened by the bond, rather then depleted and left bereft. Love should be empowering, not all-consuming.

Love and light
Kaz

[donq]

Hi luv,

At first, I was hesitating to reply your post because I used to have some bad experiences about this.
I meant most of the time (if not all the time) I could not say what I really want to say because of so many factors
(including language barrier.)  Hence (serious) misunderstanding followed. For example, I used to tell someone I knew
that I was poor (just because I honestly told them the truth and I could not pretend/lie to them that I was rich)
they misunderstood that I had some hidden agenda to do that. (Maybe because no one will honestly admit that he/she is poor?)

So, let me apologize you in advance if anything I’m going to say may make some misunderstanding.
And if it’s the case, please just ignore this post and forgive me.

You were so brave and mature! (this is all I want to say) :-)

I really respect and appreciate your sharing.

Maybe I cannot say anything better than what Kaz already said. But let me add something here a bit.

From my personal experience, I think the most difficult thing to “accept” in any (gone) wrong relationship is “to believe.”
Not only to “accept” the truth but have to believe in that truth, too. Because sometimes, we can accept what we don’t want
but it’s still hard for us to believe that what we want are really bad. (for example, it’s easy for me to “accept”
that I will never own that luxury porsche, but it’s still hard for me to “believe” that it’s not a “really” cool car. Hahaha)


To believe that a bad person is really a bad person. And stop giving him/her any excuse.

Again, this is so complicated. In other context, normally people would accuse the other, “you are bad, only I’m good”
or “at least you and I are equally bad/good, ok?” But I believe that in our context here, we don’t have bias
(come on!, at least have it very least.) Because one important things about walking on spiritual path is
we have to be very honest about good and bad in ourselves (“know thyself”)   

“How could someone I had known her for more than 12 years could be bad like that?  I should be my fault for sure.”
Or “I should misunderstanding her about something” etc. etc.

But…As long as I could not believe that she was bad,
I would never want to end my relationship (even it was already ended long time ago.)

[To be fair here, just in case, I had to believe, too, that, I was not good enough for her. QED/End of story. :-)]  

As for my case, it took me almost 3 years (after divorce) to be able to believe that she was bad. :-)

And I’m sure I’m not that fox in Aesop's fable." Because even it’s not sour, I still don’t like grape anyway. hahaha!

I know all of us here are very sensitive persons. And you were so brave to share something that was very sensitive here.
Thanks again.  

P.S. Today (your tomorrow) is my holiday. So I will disappear for a while.

[baangus]

Hi donq. A couple of quotes I came across this morning that relate to your original question:

The price of inaction is far greater than the cost of making a mistake.
~ Meister Eckhart

By all means go and find a partner.
If you get a good one you'll be happy.
If you get a bad one you'll become a philosopher.
~ Socrates

[donq]

Hi baangus,

Ah…you’ve just helped me to understand the joke below:

At the finals of the National Poetry Competition the two finalists were an
unlikely pair. Finalist number one was a Harvard educated professor of
literature and the winner of several previous competitions. Finalist number two
was a young Marine Lcpl. from the hills of West Virginia who needed help filling
out the entry form.
The final round consisted of each competitor being given the same word and
having thirty seconds to complete a verse, using the word.
The Professor went first. The Judge said, "The final word this year is
'Timbuktu' "
The Prof. started thinking. Ten seconds went by. Twenty seconds.
The crowd became nervous. After twenty eight seconds the Prof. began,

" Across the hot Sahara sand,
Trekked the dusty caravan.
Men on camels, two by two,
Destination-Timbuktu."

The crowd went wild, there was no way that the Hillbilly Marine would ever top
that.
The Lcpl. was brought on stage. The judge gave the word, " Timbuktu.
The young Lcpl. looked to the sky, he thought for 1 0-1 5 seconds, stepped up to
the microphone, cleared his throat, and began,

"Tim' en me, a-hunting went,
Met three girls in a pop-up-tent,
They was three and we was two,
So, I bucked one and Tim Buck Two!

I see, Tim wanted to be a “happy+philosopher”!
So he took two! Hahaha!

Seriously, yes, I agree with both Socrates and Meister Eckhart.
And it reminds me of something Confucius said:

Life leads the thoughtful man on a path of many windings.
Now the course is checked, now it runs straight again.
Here winged thoughts may pour freely forth in words,
There the heavy burden of knowledge must be shut away in silence.
But when two people are at one in their inmost hearts,
They shatter even the strength of iron or of bronz.
And when two people understand each other in their inmost hearts,
Their words are sweet and strong, like the fragrance of orchids.


P.S. I was going to stay from my computer screen for one day, to rest my eyes,
but after I checked the forum (with my android device) I could not resist myself but have to come here.
You made me laugh. Thanks. And that was why I have to post this in return. :-)
Now, I really have to rest. Be back later. 

[luvnlite]

Hi Kaz!
The line in your reply: "It takes a lot of strength from the giver to withdraw it. To break off this almost parasitical relationship" ... hit the nail on the head. That must be the reason it came to you as you were writing it It's been a difficult thing for me to do all of my life. And, it is parasitical ... and it becomes addicting in a weird, twisted way. I LOVE the quote you included. And, I would love to believe that such relationships can exist, just not quite there yet. If it turns out to not be something for me on this journey, then so be it. But, I am glad to know that it does exist and I'm so grateful that people like you are out there to help me realize that. Mostly, I just pray that my two daughters are able to find that real connection in their lives. So far, so good Thank you also for your kind words, it certainly helps the healing process. <3

[luvnlite]

Hi donq! Thanks so much for your reply. When you said: "From my personal experience, I think the most difficult thing to “accept” in any (gone) wrong relationship is “to believe.”
Not only to “accept” the truth but have to believe in that truth, too. Because sometimes, we can accept what we don’t want" ... that is so very true. I come to accept many things good or bad, but don't necessarily recognize that some things that were happening were actually bad for me. I just figured I was being a good person ... but I was really just allowing things to go on that were detrimental in the end. Also, just wanted to say that I do realize that I wasn't perfect in these relationships gone bad (so to speak). It occurred to me that in my reply, I made myself out to be the victim. But, there were plenty of things I could have done to make things better and to be a stronger person. Hind sight is always 20/20. Thank you so much for your reply. I love that we all learn from one another! I look forward to getting to know folks a little better via this site. Have a wonderful day!

[donq]

Hi luv,

Thanks for your understanding. And I do appreciate your friendliness.

Though  I don’t mind to look like a grumpy old man but as this is a spiritual forum, I think I should add something here,
in case someone might pass by and read this thread would not get a wrong impression.

I skipped to talk about “forgive and forget” on my previous posts because we already know they were a must, both worldly and spiritual cases.
So, no need to talk about it. As for “bad”, it was my personal old (bad) habit. I love to think thing through.
Besides, I came from the serious Buddhist tradition, we had to think things thoroughly.

Let me put it in this way, yes, I have to love other persons no whether they “might” be bad or good.
And I believe I can (for example, tt’s easy for me to love someone with one of my eye closed.)
But the test will be harder/tougher, when I know for sure that he/she is really bad. Was I afraid to know that very truth or not? That was my quest.
These are different approaches. For some spiritual persons, they don’t need to know for sure if other persons really bad or not.
They can love them. But as for me, I’m kind of a truth’s lover, even it would kill me.

I knew some woman who still thought that her ex husband was a good man even he cheated on her.
She already got divorce for 2 years but still was waiting for his return. I knew some parents who blindly loved their children.
Yes, it was good to love their children unconditionally but not spoiling children like that. One woman has lived separately from her husband
for more than 10 years, while everyone already knew that he has lived with other woman, but it seems she is the only soul who doesn’t know about it.
I was told that she knew but she pretended not to know and didn’t want to accept/believe it and she didn’t want to hear this truth from anyone
except from her husband. As long as he doesn’t tell her about other woman (and give money to her), he’s still her husband.
When I lived in the forest temple, I knew some spouse (villagers) who lived nearby. They were so poor. A wife went to work on a field
and got only 2 dollars a day for her hard labor. But her husband spent 3 dollars everyday for buying that one bottle of moonshine!
And they had 3 kids to feed!   

I could not think any other word except he’s “bad.” (very very bad, too, right?)

Now, this was what I meant by “bad” on my previous posts. Blind love is not spiritual/universal love. They are different.
Sometimes, blind love has something to do with love oneself (in the wrong way so it really means doesn’t “love” oneself.)
It comes from the fear of losing, being too afraid to accept/believe in the truth.

Oh!...I have to stop here. Or I really become a grumpy old man. Hahaha!

P.S. Yes, I still love (spiritually) my ex. We are still friends and work together in some job. I still helped her from time to time when she asked for it.
Hmm…but I think if she and her new husband get serious illness (like my spiritual teacher’s case), maybe that time I will be “very” busy
and will always not available to help them. Hahaha!  

[baangus]

Mar 31, 2014 18:02:31 GMT luvnlite said:

It occurred to me that in my reply, I made myself out to be the victim.

Hi luvnlite. I didn't get that sense. You were open about clinging to patterns of behaviour that weren't particularly healthy. That's very honest and more than many people would be willing to admit.

[baangus]

Apr 1, 2014 5:11:13 GMT donq said:

Let me put it in this way, yes, I have to love other persons no whether they “might” be bad or good.
And I believe I can (for example, tt’s easy for me to love someone with one of my eye closed.)
But the test will be harder/tougher, when I know for sure that he/she is really bad. Was I afraid to know that very truth or not? That was my quest.
These are different approaches. For some spiritual persons, they don’t need to know for sure if other persons really bad or not.
They can love them. But as for me, I’m kind of a truth’s lover, even it would kill me.

Hi donq. What would be the point of any of this? You're looking for light-hearted happy friendship and hopefully something more. Why not leave the heavy-duty "spiritual test" aspect out of it? It seems to me it's both irrelevant and maybe even getting in your way a bit. Some relationships work and some don't. That's all there is to it.

We don't have to hang around or learn to like the people we don't happen to get along with. That honestly sounds like a couple of the dysfunctional relationships I've had myself, and I wouldn't recommend it to anyone.

[donq]

Hi,

Oh…sorry, it might be because of my bad English?
That “was” my quest. It used to be my quest (of learning/knowing about good and bad.)  
Yes, I understand what you tried to say.
"Everybody makes mistakes once in a while.
The trick is, learning to live with it, like we all do…”
(Quoted from macgyver, old TV series)

P.S. Hey, I like your mustache/beard.

[baangus]

Apr 1, 2014 9:20:30 GMT donq said:

Oh…sorry, That “was” my quest.
P.S. Hey, I like your mustache/beard.

Okay donq.
And I shaved the morning, so back to beautiful me again, ha.
BTW, you now look remarkably similar to a friend of mine, Fran Wolfle.

[donq]

Hi B,

Thanks. And you look like a nerd after shaving. lol

[baangus]

Apr 2, 2014 11:59:11 GMT donq said:

And you look like a nerd after shaving.

I beg to differ, this is what nerd me looks like: